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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    I'm just so P that I find it difficult to believe that we necessarily know everything, or can understand and explain everything, entirely, already. It just seems so arrogant.
    Believe me, thats not only a p point of view.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post


    Being a dominant intuitive means that I definitely have the tendency to have and believe hunches about things that are yet to be proven. (Um, isn't that a given ).

    That's what I would have thought too. It was a little surprising for me to find out that most of the dominant intuitives that are NTs are skeptics.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    We actually interviewed people with different types from around the world to find out what draws them toward spirituality, what pushes them away. A couple findings:

    • ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, ENTP, INTP aren't very common in any organized Western religious communities (Protestant, Catholic, Fundamental, Unitarial, Ba'Hai, Jewish) but for very different reasons
    • For the rest, it seemed to matter whether their early religious experiences honored their dominant function. For example if dominant Intuitives got to come up with their own insights and also hold contrary positions; if Dominant Sensing types were part of practical traditions that helped them with the here and now, if dominant Feeling types were part of places where grace instead of judgment was shown; if dominant Thinkers were allowed to question and argue (kinda rare environments...)
    • Some types don't question family traditions until they're older. Some question during adolescence or before
    • NTs who grew up without a family religion often see no need. They may study religions (a ton of INTPs had read all kinds of sacred texts more than once; ENTPs had visited all kinds of different communities or experiential stuff) but they don't make it personal unless they've come to the end of every other resource--or someone whose wisdom they trust shows them logical reasoning


    Workshops on type and spirituality are a blast to lead because people fall out of their chairs when they see what other types consider spiritual/sacred/meaningful/prayerful/whatever you want to name it.
    Very interesting. I grew up with a strong family religion, but I later came to realize it didn't "honor my dominant function." I was genuine in my beliefs and a very religious person. I think because my faith was so important to me I tried to ignore the parts where the church didn't fit who I was and what I believed. I had too many independant ideas about spirituality to fit with organized religion. But while I did give up on organized religion, I didn't give up on spirituality.

    Ilah

  4. #34
    Senior Member Ilah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not an NF, but I think the examples are somewhat loaded. I think many of those things can be proven, but they use a different standard of proof than some might be used to. For example since religion has a moral component, then proof of valid religion or spirituality would be if a person's character was changed in a way that the religion teaches.
    Please excuse the multiple posts, I like distinct thoughts to be seperate posts.

    It depends on how you define faith. For example, in Christianity I see two main parts of faith. 1) The moral teachings, commandments, guidelines for living, etc. 2) The divinity of Christ, the belief that Jesus rose from the dead, the believe Jesus died for our sins, etc.

    It sounds to me like you are mostly focused on the first part. Do the teachings make sense? If we lived according to the teaching would we have a better life? In theory you could prove that the teachings are sound. You could prove that they are better than no moral code at all. You could argue their relative merit against, say the guidelines given for Buddhism or the personal moral codes of some one who was an athiest.

    Though all of this you could prove that Jesus was a great teacher, but that does not prove he is God. That is a matter of faith which cannot be proven or disproven.

    Ilah

  5. #35
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    As a child, I was always inquisitive/skeptical about certain things people say/do...

    Personally, being an NF doesn't equate to easily believing in what is said, unless I know for a fact through my own experienes that certain things could be plausible. Sometimes, I am at fault for believing in things that cannot be testable/proven to the human eye, because I think that there are things that are not within our reach to observe; therefore, things that seem to not be able to exist according to our 5 senses, might (ex- metaphysics).

    In fact, our intuitive nature can also help us to sniff out bullshit when we hear it.

    I sat through Catecism for 10 ENTIRE years of my life. Most things I heard made me raise my eyebrows. I couldn't just accept stories that were taught to me at face value, because intuitively, it just didn't make sense. Figures why I've always been a non-comformist in my way of thinking/viewing the world/life itself.

    I also have a strong ability to listen to my hunches in order to make sense of the underlying relationships to certain situations that aren't so apparent. Those who know me in real life think I'm innocent/appear to be naiive because I like to keep things happy, innocent/light-hearted don't know that I'm quite overanlayiical/not as trusting as I appear to be. I guess it's the yin/yang part of my personality that makes it unique to me..

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I am talking about beleiving in things that cannot be proven. Religion, spirituality, metaphysical, supernatural, etc. Not that you necessarily believe in all of those, but that you believe in something that cannot be proven.
    I don't know about NF's as a whole, but could see how it could be more of an NF trend to believe in things that can't be proven.

    For me personally, I think I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to the metaphysical. I don't believe in things that cannot be proven, but since there are elements of existance that cannot be proven at this time, I also don't NOT believe in them.

    I'm definitely a skeptic when it comes to metaphysical stuff (and think most religion/spirituality is the result of cultural and psychological factors anyway, rather than Reality), and/or have such non-traditional views of an Entity/power that by definition I pretty much don't believe. I like to hope though that I'll be completely and utterly surprised once I pass away, and there is a continuation and something much larger (I'm envisioning 'Contact' in my mind), even though I also won't be surprised (and..ha..wouldn't know anyway) if there's nothing after I die.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  7. #37
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    I think there are a lot of NTs around here that seem to quick to subscribe to an outdated form of rationalism without questioning it. This may be the result of little or no education in philosophy along with arrogant confidence in their own resplendent NTness. You might enjoy reading Ken Wilbur if you haven't already. He has interesting things to say about how eastern mental disciplines are a form of internal experiment that can be reproduced. You may find that Ken Wilbur helps you build a bridge between the parts of your personality that seem more NT to you and the other parts. I'm not sure. I personally found his writings helpful in reconciling my intellect with my spiritual experiences in meditation and dreams and other internal states.

  8. #38
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    The last X is probably a J. /outdated rationalism

  9. #39
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    I don't think we can limit our beliefs to our 5 senses. Seems kind of empty. It also seems kind of arrogant to assume that our senses are able to perceive everything worth knowing in this universe. Thus, I keep an open mind about most things.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member quietmusician's Avatar
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    Nope. Not me. I keep an open mind about everything. And I'm definitely not concerned with whether or not a high power exists. I've got too much on my mind to care about such things.

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