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  1. #11
    Senior Member SillyGoose's Avatar
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    I need proof to believe or have faith in something.

    I do like to talk about what can't be proven though.
    "My mom told me there was a weirdo on every bus, but I never could find him." Emo Phillips

  2. #12
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    We actually interviewed people with different types from around the world to find out what draws them toward spirituality, what pushes them away. A couple findings:

    • ESTP, ESFP, ISTP, ISFP, ENTP, INTP aren't very common in any organized Western religious communities (Protestant, Catholic, Fundamental, Unitarial, Ba'Hai, Jewish) but for very different reasons
    • For the rest, it seemed to matter whether their early religious experiences honored their dominant function. For example if dominant Intuitives got to come up with their own insights and also hold contrary positions; if Dominant Sensing types were part of practical traditions that helped them with the here and now, if dominant Feeling types were part of places where grace instead of judgment was shown; if dominant Thinkers were allowed to question and argue (kinda rare environments...)
    • Some types don't question family traditions until they're older. Some question during adolescence or before
    • NTs who grew up without a family religion often see no need. They may study religions (a ton of INTPs had read all kinds of sacred texts more than once; ENTPs had visited all kinds of different communities or experiential stuff) but they don't make it personal unless they've come to the end of every other resource--or someone whose wisdom they trust shows them logical reasoning


    Workshops on type and spirituality are a blast to lead because people fall out of their chairs when they see what other types consider spiritual/sacred/meaningful/prayerful/whatever you want to name it.
    edcoaching

  3. #13
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilah View Post
    I am talking about beleiving in things that cannot be proven. Religion, spirituality, metaphysical, supernatural, etc. Not that you necessarily believe in all of those, but that you believe in something that cannot be proven.
    I'm not an NF, but I think the examples are somewhat loaded. I think many of those things can be proven, but they use a different standard of proof than some might be used to. For example since religion has a moral component, then proof of valid religion or spirituality would be if a person's character was changed in a way that the religion teaches.
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  4. #14
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Probably, but I don't think I am. One of my friends definitely is the classic paranoid ENFJ.

  5. #15
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I'm not an NF, but I think the examples are somewhat loaded. I think many of those things can be proven, but they use a different standard of proof than some might be used to. For example since religion has a moral component, then proof of valid religion or spirituality would be if a person's character was changed in a way that the religion teaches.
    That'd be true if people actually did what the religion was asking them to rather than pick and choose their favorite parts. As Chesterton put it, "The trouble with Christianity isn't that it's been tried and found wanting; it's that it hasn't been tried..." (I mighta messed up a couple words;see my avatar...)
    edcoaching

  6. #16
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    • For the rest, it seemed to matter whether their early religious experiences honored their dominant function. For example if dominant Intuitives got to come up with their own insights and also hold contrary positions; if Dominant Sensing types were part of practical traditions that helped them with the here and now, if dominant Feeling types were part of places where grace instead of judgment was shown; if dominant Thinkers were allowed to question and argue (kinda rare environments...)
    Interesting.

    I was forced to go to church every Sunday until I was in 2nd grade (or perhaps even before that), when I vehemently refused to go, due to all the Jesus this, Jesus that, worshiping. (It gave me the hardcore heebeejeebies). At the same time, I was concurrently attending a (reform) Jewish elementary school where bible studies and temple were mandatory, and I loved bible studies, it was fun, and we were encouraged to ask questions and interpret multiple meanings. Although I am an atheist, I appreciate(d) Judaism, and the Jewish tradition FAR MORE than Christianity and the "Christian way". I have never met a dogmatic Jew, (though I am sure they exist), and yet I have met far more dogmatic Christians than I have met non-dogmatic ones.

    Being a dominant intuitive means that I definitely have the tendency to have and believe hunches about things that are yet to be proven. (Um, isn't that a given ).

    I trust myself (my intuition and my ability to reason), and have trusted myself far more than I have ever trusted any or most "authority" figures.

    I have zany theories, but a lot of them have panned out.

    (shrugs)
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  7. #17
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    That'd be true if people actually did what the religion was asking them to rather than pick and choose their favorite parts. As Chesterton put it, "The trouble with Christianity isn't that it's been tried and found wanting; it's that it hasn't been tried..." (I mighta messed up a couple words;see my avatar...)
    Heh, this is a valid point. Still I have met plenty of people who were both sincere and have had life altering experiences because of faith/religion. Although I believe that there are considerably more people out there who either miss the point or are just going through the motions.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    • For the rest, it seemed to matter whether their early religious experiences honored their dominant function. For example if dominant Intuitives got to come up with their own insights and also hold contrary positions; if Dominant Sensing types were part of practical traditions that helped them with the here and now, if dominant Feeling types were part of places where grace instead of judgment was shown; if dominant Thinkers were allowed to question and argue (kinda rare environments...)
    • Some types don't question family traditions until they're older. Some question during adolescence or before.
    Interesting..

    I don't believe in things that can't be proven, and not really in Christianity despite still being part of the chruch. All my religion teachers always called me an atheist, and I did come to my believes when I was 10 years old, which I later found out to be sort of existentialism. I don't know if something beyond exists, but I need proof.

  9. #19
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    i believe so and just because you're an NF and you don't, it doesn't matter because we're talking about the bigger picture. i have read that NT's are the temperament least likely to believe in a higher power. may be the lack of proof to some that causes this. SP's believe in the here and now, so the question may not be that interesting to them. not as much anyways. SJ's are norm reinforcers, and i've known SJ's that reinforce their own religion significantly. they need to be in an environment that fosters the religion though of course. as an NF, i can see how our romanticism can develop a tendency to believe in a god etc. we do like to conceptualize, but we are less harsh than NT's. these things put together can make us more religious. ENFJ's are the group most likely to believe in a higher power btw. that's more than coincidence.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Delphyne's Avatar
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    I dont believe that only things exist which can be proven.

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