[MBTI General] Do NF's have power and control issues?

[Eric B]

Powerlessness is said to be a stressor for NT's by Berens, and mastery the core need, yet you do not see this described for NF's. In the traditional temperament model, the Choleric was the one who sought power. Yet Berens, following Keirsey, links the NF to Choleric instead of the NT (this mainly because of the "exciteability" of one and the "coolness" of the other).
NF needs are "meaning and significance" and "unique identity".

But the old Choleric on the other hand is never ascribed such goals as "building bridges between people", "their lives center around deep empathetic relationships", "creating harmony", "natural givers of sincere compliments", "working toward the greater good".
They are purely focused on power for their own goals, (and empathy is often the biggest thing they are said to lack!) While this can be associated with "significance" and "identity", the motivations are completely different from what Keirsey and Berens describe for the NF.

So what I was wondering is if NF's might use power seeking to fulfill their need for meaning, significance and unique identity, and if NT's might develop significance and identity issues if they don't have the power, mastery and competence then need.

NF types seem to be described as allowing control by others (being influenced, even taken advantage of,etc), as well as not imposing on them (allowing people to have their own unique identity), the exception being when values are at stake.

So would NF's describe themselves as having any kind of "power" issues?

 

[Clownmaster]

In social environments, I often subtly manipulate the environment around me to give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself, if that's what you're asking.

 

[runvardh]

I guess I like the idea of having power and control to find meaning and significance; the problem is everything I get my hands on it things turn to crap.

 

[Eric B]

I mean more in terms of power over people and situations. The "choleric" sense of "power and control".

I don't really understand "give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself". Is that being popular or charming. That's not really what I mean, though you can gain power and control that way (like swaying people).

And do you actively seek power and control find meaning, or get frustrated when you don't have that particular means; beyond just liking the idea?

 

[SillyGoose]

No, I do not seek power or control over anything ever.

However I do know that I can manipulate most situations at anytime to give me more power or control. But it is disgusting to me to even think about doing it.

I'd rather meet or need to meet people on real terms, rather than fake ones. By manipulating my way into something doesn't give me the connection I need.

 

[Anja]

No, I do not seek power or control over anything ever.

However I do know that I can manipulate most situations at anytime to give me more power or control. But it is disgusting to me to even think about doing it.

I'd rather meet or need to meet people on real terms, rather than fake ones. By manipulating my way into something doesn't give me the connection I need.

Mercy, Goose. Words of profound wisdom you spoke there.

My mom was a manipulative person and an "aha" moment for me was the day I realized that in manipulating others to do what she wanted she was robbing herself of the chance to know if people were doing things because they genuinely liked her or if they were only doing them because she thought she was making them do it. A sad thing, indeed.

And with a consistently manipulative person most people figure it out after a while and just go along with them, sometimes unhappily, just to keep the peace. A bad situation all around.

 

[SillyGoose]

Mercy, Goose. Words of profound wisdom you spoke there.

My mom was a manipulative person and an "aha" moment for me was the day I realized that in manipulating others to do what she wanted she was robbing herself of the chance to know if people were doing things because they genuinely liked her or if they were only doing them because she thought she was making them do it. A sad thing, indeed.

And with a consistently manipulative person most people figure it out after a while and just go along with them, sometimes unhappily, just to keep the peace. A bad situation all around.

It is sad. I think everyone knows somebody like this at some point in their life. It's very enlightening when you realize (aha moment indeed!) that it really doesn't establish any "real" connections to people in life.

However I've noticed that these sort of people don't usually care to establish a real connection.

 

[Anja]

Yeah, my poor mom is like that. She keeps others at arms length. I feel sorry for her because she is missing out on so much.

I suspect that she's afraid no one would like the real her. And, of course, I have for years and like her fine. But I don't think she knows how much I truly know her. Ha.

She's becoming senile and so I am getting to know the real her better all the time and she's a lot of fun now that she's forgotten to pretend.

You know, I think power and control is very much an illusion. What do any of us have power over anyway? Destruction, certainly. And even that can be an illusion because there are always those who will rebuild.

I've known a handful of batterers in my life and while they appear to be all about power and control, sometimes when they lose the person they "control" and which makes them feel powerful, they self-destruct.

 

[phoenix13]

I'm not familiar with Berens or Keirsey on any deep level, so I've nothing to offer there.

So what I was wondering is if NF's might use power seeking to fulfill their need for meaning, significance and unique identity, and if NT's might develop significance and identity issues if they don't have the power, mastery and competence then need.

I'm not sure I understand the question. My simplified paraphrase is: Do NFs use power to find their sense of self, and NTs loose their sense of self without power?
Where do I tackle that from? I definitely could use some clarification. Also, is there any particular definition of power that you're working with, or just the general notion?

NF types seem to be described as allowing control by others (being influenced, even taken advantage of,etc), as well as not imposing on them (allowing people to have their own unique identity), the exception being when values are at stake.

So would NF's describe themselves as having any kind of "power" issues?

the bold: "Being influenced" as in, taking in others' view points, or being used? Yes to the former, and hell no to the later.

the non-bold: absolutely 100%. Even when values are at stake, I make my values known to them and/or give them information to re-inform their judgement. I never, however, claim to or want to have power over what they actually end up doing. (Of course, we're not talking about murder or rape or genocide here, in which case I'd kick their ass(es) sooooo hard.)


For ENFPs at least, our power-issues (more like issues with power) are linked to preserving our independence and autonomy. Thus, many of us don't engage in malicious social manipulation, or bark out commands. When someone trys to do it to us, we usually see it and get pissed and tell them to knock it off lest we be forced to knock them off their throne which is the toilet (loose associations anyone? I'm sleeeeeepy.) IOW, we don't outright seek control. If we have it, we'll likely be democratic with it, or use it to empower others.

 

[phoenix13]

I mean more in terms of power over people and situations. The "choleric" sense of "power and control".

I don't really understand "give off a persona that attracts meaning and signifigance to myself". Is that being popular or charming. That's not really what I mean, though you can gain power and control that way (like swaying people).

And do you actively seek power and control find meaning, or get frustrated when you don't have that particular means; beyond just liking the idea?

You've confused me again, sir Eric. How on earth could one use power/control as a means to find meaning? And you've put out a lot of words like: competence, meaning, identity, goals, etc. Could you reduce those to something I can tackle? I'm a sleepy panda. Maybe I'll get it in the morning...

 

[Xander]

Seek to control evironment... I'm not sure that would be either NF or otherwise in particular.

ENFJ, Yes.
INFP, No... well not usually. I think any evidence of 'yes' could be attributed to the shadow ESTJ.
ENFP, Not unless they need to control it... otherwise half the time it controls them
INFJ, Who knows... never can read the sly little *#$^s!!

 

[animenagai]

ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's, it's about making people get along. being in charge itself is not in the spotlight, but a byproduct. we don't do things because we want to be in charge, we do things because we think it's right. not because we want to have the feeling of satisfaction from pulling the strings.

 

[Eric B]

OK, I think I'm getting the answer I want.

I'm not familiar with Berens or Keirsey on any deep level, so I've nothing to offer there.

I'm not sure I understand the question. My simplified paraphrase is: Do NFs use power to find their sense of self, and NTs loose their sense of self without power?
Where do I tackle that from? I definitely could use some clarification. Also, is there any particular definition of power that you're working with, or just the general notion?

I would mean power or control in the stereotypical "ESTJ" sense as Xander implied. Wanting to give commands, or arrange the environment to have things one's own way.
This can be "manipulation", but manipulation can also be a more passive-aggressive method for those who are afraid to command. I mean a more direct commanding, or forcing one's way onto others. And do NF's at least use these tactics to gain or maintain their sense of self?

ENFJ is an In Charge Interaction Style, so they will tend to have some of that behavior. ENFP is expressive (Get things Going) so they may also look like that a bit for that reason. But so far, it seems the answer is generally no for the NF as a whole.

the bold: "Being influenced" as in, taking in others' view points, or being used? Yes to the former, and hell no to the later.

I did see one ENFJ description that said they can find themselves being used. And given that they are In Charge, it must be the influence of the NF's cooperativeness and Motive focus.
.

the non-bold: absolutely 100%. Even when values are at stake, I make my values known to them and/or give them information to re-inform their judgement. I never, however, claim to or want to have power over what they actually end up doing.

OK, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

For ENFPs at least, our power-issues (more like issues with power) are linked to preserving our independence and autonomy. Thus, many of us don't engage in malicious social manipulation, or bark out commands. When someone trys to do it to us, we usually see it and get pissed and tell them to knock it off lest we be forced to knock them off their throne which is the toilet (loose associations anyone? I'm sleeeeeepy.) IOW, we don't outright seek control. If we have it, we'll likely be democratic with it, or use it to empower others.

OK; that again pretty much answers my question.
(What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).

 

[Anja]

ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's, it's about making people get along. being in charge itself is not in the spotlight, but a byproduct. we don't do things because we want to be in charge, we do things because we think it's right. not because we want to have the feeling of satisfaction from pulling the strings.

I'd like to comment on this anime.

The reason why we may attempt to control others is less important than the fact that we feel a need to "make" someone do something. My perspective.

We are still seeking personal comfort or trying to fill a need when we try to keep people in harmony. Good intentions, misplaced though they be.

I've thought a lot about this over the years because I have a strong need to maintain calm in my personal environment. And I find it difficult to let go of that need to reassure, to soothe, to still rough waters either in social interaction or intrapersonally.

That's the deal, I think.

Cuz I've found it to be a self-defeating habit to try to "make" others change to make myself comfortable. It is much more relaxing to me to calm myself. Not easy, but accomplishable. My own internal state is still easier to manage than someone else's.

And, that altruistic thing? Making others more comfortable? Hey. Calming myself sometimes has that added benefit for others.

 

[phoenix13]

OK, I think I'm getting the answer I want.
I would mean power or control in the stereotypical "ESTJ" sense as Xander implied. Wanting to give commands, or arrange the environment to have things one's own way.
This can be "manipulation", but manipulation can also be a more passive-aggressive method for those who are afraid to command. I mean a more direct commanding, or forcing one's way onto others. And do NF's at least use these tactics to gain or maintain their sense of self?

ENFJ is an In Charge Interaction Style, so they will tend to have some of that behavior. ENFP is expressive (Get things Going) so they may also look like that a bit for that reason. But so far, it seems the answer is generally no for the NF as a whole.


I did see one ENFJ description that said they can find themselves being used. And given that they are In Charge, it must be the influence of the NF's cooperativeness and Motive focus.
.
OK, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

OK; that again pretty much answers my question.
(What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).

I'm glad you found the answer somewhere in my ramblings. The NF you're describing seems to be specific to the NFe types (and I'm not even sure that works with INFJs given their obsession with autonomy). I'm still curious about the connection between power and sense of self. What do you mean by that (for NTs as well as NFs)?

 

[phoenix13]

blah blahhhhh...
(What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).

1) So, in the totally valid and scientifically sound glossary of astrology (as presented in the highlty reputable website: Astrology: Glossary of astrological terms and Divination names: C-Glossary), the definition of choleric is:
"One of the four temperaments, associated with the element of fire. The choleric personality is believed to indicate an optimistic, youthful, impulsive temperament, prone to spontaneous outbursts of emotion."

That's totally ENFP, yo.

2) Wiki says:
"This is the commander-type. Cholerics are dominant, strong, decisive, stubborn and even arrogant."

Decisive... that definitely doesn't apply to NFs across the board, or NTs.

3) H.G. Wells says:
"Men of the choleric type take to kicking and smashing"

When I was a young lass, this was indeed the case... but that probably isn't correlated to being an NF or NT in particular... or any personality type really.

4) yo mama says:
"Moo"

Just thought I'd throw that out there.

So, it all depends on the definition... Berens may just be playing word games with you, brah.

 

[Xander]

Seek to control evironment... I'm not sure that would be either NF or otherwise in particular.

ENFJ, Yes.
INFP, No... well not usually. I think any evidence of 'yes' could be attributed to the shadow ESTJ.
ENFP, Not unless they need to control it... otherwise half the time it controls them
INFJ, Who knows... never can read the sly little *#$^s!!

Quoting myself being bad form aside I think the additional time devoted to thinking about this has me thinking slightly differently.

ENFJ, still yes.
INFP, yes to the extent that INTPs like to control the definitions of things.
ENFP, still yes as they can become intractible if the environment is not controlled to their liking. Memories of Dom arguing with just about every text book at school comes to mind. The information did not fit into his paradigm and until it did he seemed obsessed with controlling things and locking things down until it was understood.
INFJ, judging by my INFJ friend (a recent revelation in typing and also an insight from Phoneix) yes. They do control things so that they are not limited too much by others. The "contracts" they enter into are one's they specifically agree with. Try persuading one and you'll see the control kick in.

Having said all of this there is arguments for any type to control their environment. Perhaps it could be said that ENFJs are more prone to be Choleric (as you have defined it) but that such a facet is more variable than other common characteristics. Also I know that as my sister has developed she has learned to let go of such things and can be very uncontrolling in a quite INTP like fashion where as long as certain lines aren't crossed she doesn't react.. but then when they are... oooh boy..

 

[Dwigie]

My views on power: fun while it lasts, gets boring power is not that fun (ex dictator speaking )
basically: I won't boss you around normally unless extremely cranky but if you're trying to boss me constantly around I'll go away, no fighting or arguing just leaving. Don't do to me what you wouldn't want done to you...simple.

 

[entropie]

my girlfirend controls me, she is INFJ

Don't tell her I said so, she would kill me

 

[Lookin4theBestNU]

ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's,

Nice post. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions. Yes I'm an "in charge style" no doubt. However being in charge is a responsibility to me not necessarily an achievement. Order is good....it gets things done. I like to create/maintain it. I don't have to always be in charge to happy is what may seem shocking to some! Life is easier just sitting back and letting someone else be responsible. I thoroughly enjoy having someone to defer decisions to. This responsibility generally comes to find me. I have been known to seek it out when I deem that someone is incompetent/inadequate. I generally prefer a democratic way of doing things so I don't think I have power issues...at least not serious ones.


Can I be manipulated? Absolutely anyone can be I think. I will admit certain problems I have here. Tears and emotional reactions are a weak spot for me. Turning on the waterworks so to speak will indeed lend me towards giving the benefit of the doubt. This applies even when I "know" that someone is most likely being insincere as I carefully study body language. I'd say if you take the time to try to convince me of your sincerity then I will doubt myself first. I can be manipulated for a while this way. I can't think of too many others right off hand. Interesting topic btw.