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  1. #21
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lookin4theBestNU View Post
    Nice post. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions. Yes I'm an "in charge style" no doubt. However being in charge is a responsibility to me not necessarily an achievement. Order is good....it gets things done. I like to create/maintain it. I don't have to always be in charge to happy is what may seem shocking to some! Life is easier just sitting back and letting someone else be responsible. I thoroughly enjoy having someone to defer decisions to. This responsibility generally comes to find me. I have been known to seek it out when I deem that someone is incompetent/inadequate. I generally prefer a democratic way of doing things so I don't think I have power issues...at least not serious ones.

    Can I be manipulated? Absolutely anyone can be I think. I will admit certain problems I have here. Tears and emotional reactions are a weak spot for me. Turning on the waterworks so to speak will indeed lend me towards giving the benefit of the doubt. This applies even when I "know" that someone is most likely being insincere as I carefully study body language. I'd say if you take the time to try to convince me of your sincerity then I will doubt myself first. I can be manipulated for a while this way. I can't think of too many others right off hand. Interesting topic btw.
    Having watched one ENFJ make herself ill trying to keep everyone happy at a wake I concurr that manipulation is possible... most often by the ENFJ themselves

    Would I say that ENFJs are controlling? Yes.
    Would I say that it's meant to impinge on others? No.

    Trying to control things and restricting people's freedoms is not the same thing. The ENFJs I know try to control things to make things better for others. The only time it becomes negative is when they err and that's true for everyone no matter what type.

    Oh and I do know one odd ENFJ who won't control things but will just complain like mad that it wasn't done right... he's special
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #22
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    From my personal observations of my self and experience. I find I do not try to control other people, and do not like being controlled myself. I can be a bit dim witted at times and won't realize what you're doing, but once I do I am not happy. Though I like being in control of my life, I tend to boss myself around alot.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  3. #23
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So what I was wondering is if NF's might use power seeking to fulfill their need for meaning, significance and unique identity, and if NT's might develop significance and identity issues if they don't have the power, mastery and competence then need.
    Depends on what you mean by Power-Seeking. One of the things i like about the NF people in my life (NFJs) is that, unlike the SJs, they seem to direct any power-lust toward controlling themselves and crafting and maintaining their own identities rather than seeking to control others. They are rather resistant to outside influence, however. That could strike people as having power issues, but I don't think that is a fair charge.
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  4. #24
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Power in the hands of another who knows how to use it is fine by me. What bothers me is when people try to take my power away.

  5. #25
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    ENFJ's strive to treat people with the same respect, they would expect. They step in and delicately take control in situations that many would would rather ignore.

    The lady at the wake was displaying typical ENFJ behaviour - shouldering and carrying the emotional burdens of others to make things easier. If munipilation has to be employed then they will use it, but ENFJs know themselves too well; to consciously set out to negatively munipilate anyone. If they were to do so they would later on feel immense guilt and remorse. Later, attempting to correct their mistake to avoid disharmony in the long run.

    They see their relationships with others as a direct reflection of themselves - which i think makes a lot of sense. How can anyone respect themselves, if they can not respect others?

  6. #26
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    1) So, in the totally valid and scientifically sound glossary of astrology (as presented in the highlty reputable website: Astrology: Glossary of astrological terms and Divination names: C-Glossary), the definition of choleric is:
    "One of the four temperaments, associated with the element of fire. The choleric personality is believed to indicate an optimistic, youthful, impulsive temperament, prone to spontaneous outbursts of emotion."

    That's totally ENFP, yo.
    That description sounds more like Sanguine, which is air (and ENFP is part Sanguine; in the social "Interaction" area). Choleric is traditionally just as expressive, but more serious. (Keirsey/Berens gets it all mixed up when they say that Sanguine-SP-Fire; Choleric-NF-Water, Phlegmatic-NT-Air. Sanguine as fire would make some sense, but not Choleric as Water. When comparing the four body humours to the elements, phlegm is closest to water. Also, the Sanguine, again is the "light and airy" one, while fire is more "serious", since it's possibly destructive.

    2) Wiki says:
    "This is the commander-type. Cholerics are dominant, strong, decisive, stubborn and even arrogant."

    Decisive... that definitely doesn't apply to NFs across the board, or NTs.
    3) H.G. Wells says:
    "Men of the choleric type take to kicking and smashing"

    When I was a young lass, this was indeed the case... but that probably isn't correlated to being an NF or NT in particular... or any personality type really.
    Here, we see the serious nature of Choleric, but the reason why it doesn;t seem correlated to either, I believe, is because that is the more "social" stereotype of the Choleric. So it would fit the In Charge better (EST/ENJ). The groups we are calling "temperament", are called "conative", which is about action. And the NT's need for mastery would seem to fit Choleric closest, while the NF's diplomacy would fit Phlegmatic. Again, the "enthusiasm" is probably tied more to social skills.

    I was just making sure I was right about dissociating NF's from Choleric by checking to see if they might happen to have some power issues (plus also continuing to test my own type profession, since I do have such power issues, and yet people think I'm NF).
    I'm glad you found the answer somewhere in my ramblings. The NF you're describing seems to be specific to the NFe types (and I'm not even sure that works with INFJs given their obsession with autonomy).
    The combination of iNtuition with an extraverted judgment (Fe) makes them Role-directive, hence giving them some of the seriousness associated with choleric. Again, the ENFJ is truly choleric in interaction. The INFJ is simply a less expressive version of this. (Chart the Course, or "melancholic" is a less colorful "black" version of "choler" or bile!
    I'm still curious about the connection between power and sense of self. What do you mean by that (for NTs as well as NFs)?
    Quote Originally Posted by IF3157 View Post
    Depends on what you mean by Power-Seeking.
    In other words, if a particular person has power and influence, they would feel good about themselves, like they are significant, yet if they don't have power, they would feel insignificant ame meaningless. That seems ambiguous, as it touches on both NF and NT core needs. So I imagine the true "core" would be determined by which need drives which.
    Is power a means to your "real" need of significance/identity? Or do you only value significance as a means to your "real" need of power (like if you did something great, you might gain money and fame, and then have people at your feet serving you, and could do/have whatever you wanted).

    I was just wondering if the former might lead NF's to seek power. The latter, while not really the "power" ascribed to NT's, still is a kind of "mastery" and "competence", at least in the eyes of the world, where it's considered "success".
    One of the things i like about the NF people in my life (NFJs) is that, unlike the SJs, they seem to direct any power-lust toward controlling themselves and crafting and maintaining their own identities rather than seeking to control others. They are rather resistant to outside influence, however. That could strike people as having power issues, but I don't think that is a fair charge.
    That kind of "control" I'm not really counting. That would answer my question in suggesting against NF being "choleric" in the traditional sense.
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  7. #27
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Eric, a theory for you. Is it more about what you want to control and not if that is linked to type?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #28
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    INFJ, Who knows... never can read the sly little *#$^s!!

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So would NF's describe themselves as having any kind of "power" issues?
    Definitely.

    Thats why I'm real good about letting people do whatever. When I'm with friends or on a date, I'm always asking people what they want to do because I know that if I take the wheel, no one but me will ever have it again. It can cause issues.

    Thats why when I'm out and I ask people what they want to do, I want them to tell me honestly, because if they're all "I don't care, I'm good for anything" and shit like that, they have no idea what position they're putting themselves into.

    <sigh> Such a control freak.

  10. #30
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Eric B, the short answer to your main question is "No". Past that we desire a sense of control in other ways. Traditional choleric control is as foreign to me as the lack of need for it is to you.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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