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  1. #11
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Seek to control evironment... I'm not sure that would be either NF or otherwise in particular.

    ENFJ, Yes.
    INFP, No... well not usually. I think any evidence of 'yes' could be attributed to the shadow ESTJ.
    ENFP, Not unless they need to control it... otherwise half the time it controls them
    INFJ, Who knows... never can read the sly little *#$^s!!
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #12
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's, it's about making people get along. being in charge itself is not in the spotlight, but a byproduct. we don't do things because we want to be in charge, we do things because we think it's right. not because we want to have the feeling of satisfaction from pulling the strings.

  3. #13
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    OK, I think I'm getting the answer I want.
    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    I'm not familiar with Berens or Keirsey on any deep level, so I've nothing to offer there.

    I'm not sure I understand the question. My simplified paraphrase is: Do NFs use power to find their sense of self, and NTs loose their sense of self without power?
    Where do I tackle that from? I definitely could use some clarification. Also, is there any particular definition of power that you're working with, or just the general notion?
    I would mean power or control in the stereotypical "ESTJ" sense as Xander implied. Wanting to give commands, or arrange the environment to have things one's own way.
    This can be "manipulation", but manipulation can also be a more passive-aggressive method for those who are afraid to command. I mean a more direct commanding, or forcing one's way onto others. And do NF's at least use these tactics to gain or maintain their sense of self?

    ENFJ is an In Charge Interaction Style, so they will tend to have some of that behavior. ENFP is expressive (Get things Going) so they may also look like that a bit for that reason. But so far, it seems the answer is generally no for the NF as a whole.

    the bold: "Being influenced" as in, taking in others' view points, or being used? Yes to the former, and hell no to the later.
    I did see one ENFJ description that said they can find themselves being used. And given that they are In Charge, it must be the influence of the NF's cooperativeness and Motive focus.
    .
    the non-bold: absolutely 100%. Even when values are at stake, I make my values known to them and/or give them information to re-inform their judgement. I never, however, claim to or want to have power over what they actually end up doing.
    OK, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.
    For ENFPs at least, our power-issues (more like issues with power) are linked to preserving our independence and autonomy. Thus, many of us don't engage in malicious social manipulation, or bark out commands. When someone trys to do it to us, we usually see it and get pissed and tell them to knock it off lest we be forced to knock them off their throne which is the toilet (loose associations anyone? I'm sleeeeeepy.) IOW, we don't outright seek control. If we have it, we'll likely be democratic with it, or use it to empower others.
    OK; that again pretty much answers my question.
    (What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  4. #14
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's, it's about making people get along. being in charge itself is not in the spotlight, but a byproduct. we don't do things because we want to be in charge, we do things because we think it's right. not because we want to have the feeling of satisfaction from pulling the strings.
    I'd like to comment on this anime.

    The reason why we may attempt to control others is less important than the fact that we feel a need to "make" someone do something. My perspective.

    We are still seeking personal comfort or trying to fill a need when we try to keep people in harmony. Good intentions, misplaced though they be.

    I've thought a lot about this over the years because I have a strong need to maintain calm in my personal environment. And I find it difficult to let go of that need to reassure, to soothe, to still rough waters either in social interaction or intrapersonally.

    That's the deal, I think.

    Cuz I've found it to be a self-defeating habit to try to "make" others change to make myself comfortable. It is much more relaxing to me to calm myself. Not easy, but accomplishable. My own internal state is still easier to manage than someone else's.

    And, that altruistic thing? Making others more comfortable? Hey. Calming myself sometimes has that added benefit for others.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #15
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    OK, I think I'm getting the answer I want.
    I would mean power or control in the stereotypical "ESTJ" sense as Xander implied. Wanting to give commands, or arrange the environment to have things one's own way.
    This can be "manipulation", but manipulation can also be a more passive-aggressive method for those who are afraid to command. I mean a more direct commanding, or forcing one's way onto others. And do NF's at least use these tactics to gain or maintain their sense of self?

    ENFJ is an In Charge Interaction Style, so they will tend to have some of that behavior. ENFP is expressive (Get things Going) so they may also look like that a bit for that reason. But so far, it seems the answer is generally no for the NF as a whole.


    I did see one ENFJ description that said they can find themselves being used. And given that they are In Charge, it must be the influence of the NF's cooperativeness and Motive focus.
    .
    OK, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

    OK; that again pretty much answers my question.
    (What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).
    I'm glad you found the answer somewhere in my ramblings. The NF you're describing seems to be specific to the NFe types (and I'm not even sure that works with INFJs given their obsession with autonomy). I'm still curious about the connection between power and sense of self. What do you mean by that (for NTs as well as NFs)?

  6. #16
    almost half a doctor phoenix13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    blah blahhhhh...
    (What I'm doing is checking out which is really more "choleric" between NT and NF).
    1) So, in the totally valid and scientifically sound glossary of astrology (as presented in the highlty reputable website: Astrology: Glossary of astrological terms and Divination names: C-Glossary), the definition of choleric is:
    "One of the four temperaments, associated with the element of fire. The choleric personality is believed to indicate an optimistic, youthful, impulsive temperament, prone to spontaneous outbursts of emotion."

    That's totally ENFP, yo.

    2) Wiki says:
    "This is the commander-type. Cholerics are dominant, strong, decisive, stubborn and even arrogant."

    Decisive... that definitely doesn't apply to NFs across the board, or NTs.

    3) H.G. Wells says:
    "Men of the choleric type take to kicking and smashing"

    When I was a young lass, this was indeed the case... but that probably isn't correlated to being an NF or NT in particular... or any personality type really.

    4) yo mama says:
    "Moo"

    Just thought I'd throw that out there.

    So, it all depends on the definition... Berens may just be playing word games with you, brah.

  7. #17
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Seek to control evironment... I'm not sure that would be either NF or otherwise in particular.

    ENFJ, Yes.
    INFP, No... well not usually. I think any evidence of 'yes' could be attributed to the shadow ESTJ.
    ENFP, Not unless they need to control it... otherwise half the time it controls them
    INFJ, Who knows... never can read the sly little *#$^s!!
    Quoting myself being bad form aside I think the additional time devoted to thinking about this has me thinking slightly differently.

    ENFJ, still yes.
    INFP, yes to the extent that INTPs like to control the definitions of things.
    ENFP, still yes as they can become intractible if the environment is not controlled to their liking. Memories of Dom arguing with just about every text book at school comes to mind. The information did not fit into his paradigm and until it did he seemed obsessed with controlling things and locking things down until it was understood.
    INFJ, judging by my INFJ friend (a recent revelation in typing and also an insight from Phoneix) yes. They do control things so that they are not limited too much by others. The "contracts" they enter into are one's they specifically agree with. Try persuading one and you'll see the control kick in.

    Having said all of this there is arguments for any type to control their environment. Perhaps it could be said that ENFJs are more prone to be Choleric (as you have defined it) but that such a facet is more variable than other common characteristics. Also I know that as my sister has developed she has learned to let go of such things and can be very uncontrolling in a quite INTP like fashion where as long as certain lines aren't crossed she doesn't react.. but then when they are... oooh boy..
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    My views on power: fun while it lasts, gets boring power is not that fun (ex dictator speaking )
    basically: I won't boss you around normally unless extremely cranky but if you're trying to boss me constantly around I'll go away, no fighting or arguing just leaving. Don't do to me what you wouldn't want done to you...simple.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  9. #19
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    my girlfirend controls me, she is INFJ

    Don't tell her I said so, she would kill me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #20
    Senior Member Lookin4theBestNU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai
    ENFJ's? you mean stuff like going to parties, making everyone get along and then leaving? 'power' here is a very negative term. it's not about being in charge for the NF's,
    Nice post. I think this is one of the biggest misconceptions. Yes I'm an "in charge style" no doubt. However being in charge is a responsibility to me not necessarily an achievement. Order is good....it gets things done. I like to create/maintain it. I don't have to always be in charge to happy is what may seem shocking to some! Life is easier just sitting back and letting someone else be responsible. I thoroughly enjoy having someone to defer decisions to. This responsibility generally comes to find me. I have been known to seek it out when I deem that someone is incompetent/inadequate. I generally prefer a democratic way of doing things so I don't think I have power issues...at least not serious ones.


    Can I be manipulated? Absolutely anyone can be I think. I will admit certain problems I have here. Tears and emotional reactions are a weak spot for me. Turning on the waterworks so to speak will indeed lend me towards giving the benefit of the doubt. This applies even when I "know" that someone is most likely being insincere as I carefully study body language. I'd say if you take the time to try to convince me of your sincerity then I will doubt myself first. I can be manipulated for a while this way. I can't think of too many others right off hand. Interesting topic btw.
    "At points of clarity, I realize that my life on earth is meaningless, and that I am merely a pawn in a bigger game. A game I cannot possibly understand or have control of. Thankfully, before depression sets in, I drift back into my cloudy, bewildered daily routine." **Joel Patrick Warneke**

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