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  1. #11
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, you'll have to tell her that this is what's going down and give her a deadline, then either relocate the dog or have her sign it over to you if you want it.
    I think that is how an INFJ deals with an INFJ. It's rather draconian. If you have ever gone toe to toe with an INFJ then you know this is a BAD tactic. You haven't seen stubborn until you meet an INFJ or INTJ with their chin leaned into the wind. Primitive. This is why most people don't recommend same types as couples. Just this reason. Hitting this person with a J will almost guarantee a very J (ignorant) response. This person is a friend, no?

    Plus all the INFJs I know are EXTREMELY sensitive to innuendo. Just having a serious heart-to-heart about the situation and how some safeties need to be put in place etc, will put the INFJ on HIGH ALERT. Just that raising of the intimacy and attention of the issue will have the INFJ's Ni on overdrive. Don't be surprised if this makes the INFJ nervous and you get more Fe from them than you thought you would.

    Again, I have been with an INFP for several years and I am telling you: go with the guilt. Ask them to make declarative statements for their behaviro for YOUR NEEDS. If you phrase it that way, the INFJs I know will feel like shiet (even when it's not true) and want to do whatever will make the guilty feelings stop. It's the coup de gras. We have little defense. If it comes in the form of J, it is not going to go over well, I can tell you that.

  2. #12
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    I think that is how an INFJ deals with an INFJ. It's rather draconian. If you have ever gone toe to toe with an INFJ then you know this is a BAD tactic. You haven't seen stubborn until you meet an INFJ or INTJ with their chin leaned into the wind. Primitive. This is why most people don't recommend same types as couples. Just this reason. Hitting this person with a J will almost guarantee a very J (ignorant) response. This person is a friend, no?

    Plus all the INFJs I know are EXTREMELY sensitive to innuendo. Just having a serious heart-to-heart about the situation and how some safeties need to be put in place etc, will put the INFJ on HIGH ALERT. Just that raising of the intimacy and attention of the issue will have the INFJ's Ni on overdrive. Don't be surprised if this makes the INFJ nervous and you get more Fe from them than you thought you would.

    Again, I have been with an INFP for several years and I am telling you: go with the guilt. Ask them to make declarative statements for their behaviro for YOUR NEEDS. If you phrase it that way, the INFJs I know will feel like shiet (even when it's not true) and want to do whatever will make the guilty feelings stop. It's the coup de gras. We have little defense. If it comes in the form of J, it is not going to go over well, I can tell you that.
    Well, it's just that purp's roomie has been pulling this kind of stuff for some time and it's really got to be getting old. She's this girl's friend, not her mommy. Guilt can work both ways. It can, in small doses, motivate or it can incapacitate if the friend is already feeling overwhelmed by obligations she's unprepared for, so I would use it with great caution. She might even be relieved to be 'forced' to give up the dog because she unintentionally bit off more than she could chew.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #13
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Well, it's just that purp's roomie has been pulling this kind of stuff for some time and it's really got to be getting old. She's this girl's friend, not her mommy. Guilt can work both ways. It can, in small doses, motivate or it can incapacitate if the friend is already feeling overwhelmed by obligations she's unprepared for, so I would use it with great caution. She might even be relieved to be 'forced' to give up the dog because she unintentionally bit off more than she could chew.
    I agree with everything you just said...except the approach. Too J. Wouldn't the making of a formal list of the dogs needs and the roommates needs do this without so much J. Wouldn't a hightened J response AFTER this didn't work still be an option? You can't take back the J sting once you give it. Plus, the J AFTER said reasonable approach will carry mucho more weight, at least it would with me.

    Statements like "not her mommy", which is completely true of course, start the approach out with a PRE-DETERMINED OUTCOME. That is death to negotiations. I get called in frequently for conflict management and this is NOT how you start. It paints you as more unreasonalbe than you actually are. I think we have lost sight of the fact that ALL this stuff that we are hearing has NOT been expressed to the INFJ. That was the first question I asked. If the poster had said that the hear-to-heart had happned to no avail then I would be right with you on the draconian bandwagon. I am an INFJ after all.

    The INFJ has NEVER heard the angst, hurt feelings, etc of the plaintiff? This puts you in a weak and emotional position. Start off being reasonable, but DOCUMENTED, and you hold the upper hand. I think you should let somebody know they are hurting you and what your needs are before anything resembling a show of force. Show of force as the lead move? bad bad bad

  4. #14
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    I agree with everything you just said...except the approach. Too J. Wouldn't the making of a formal list of the dogs needs and the roommates needs do this without so much J. Wouldn't a hightened J response AFTER this didn't work still be an option? You can't take back the J sting once you give it. Plus, the J AFTER said reasonable approach will carry mucho more weight, at least it would with me.

    Statements like "not her mommy", which is completely true of course, start the approach out with a PRE-DETERMINED OUTCOME. That is death to negotiations. I get called in frequently for conflict management and this is NOT how you start. It paints you as more unreasonalbe than you actually are. I think we have lost sight of the fact that ALL this stuff that we are hearing has NOT been expressed to the INFJ. That was the first question I asked. If the poster had said that the hear-to-heart had happned to no avail then I would be right with you on the draconian bandwagon. I am an INFJ after all.

    The INFJ has NEVER heard the angst, hurt feelings, etc of the plaintiff? This puts you in a weak and emotional position. Start off being reasonable, but DOCUMENTED, and you hold the upper hand. I think you should let somebody know they are hurting you and what your needs are before anything resembling a show of force. Show of force as the lead move? bad bad bad
    Yeah. Good point. I hate that feeling where you know you are doing something that's bothering someone else, but you don't know which thing it is and you're kind of afraid to ask.

    Plus, I just assume that if someone is picking up part of my load when I haven't asked them to it's because they are willing to do so. If they stop doing it, I'll figure it out and start handling it myself, but it might just not be when someone else would want it done and I might have to (in the case of a dog) clean up a few messes before I get it through my head that it's better to be proactive than reactive.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah. Good point. I hate that feeling where you know you are doing something that's bothering someone else, but you don't know which thing it is and you're kind of afraid to ask.

    Plus, I just assume that if someone is picking up part of my load when I haven't asked them to it's because they are willing to do so. If they stop doing it, I'll figure it out and start handling it myself, but it might just not be when someone else would want it done and I might have to (in the case of a dog) clean up a few messes before I get it through my head that it's better to be proactive than reactive.
    Yeah, I'm pretty much the same way. Maybe this INFJ is immature and hasn't had the experience to be more proactive. Could this be that opportunity? Could this INFP be the one to help this INFJ go to the next level of development? Never know If so, do you agree that an INFJ has it within them to make noticable changes IF they are made aware of it and IF it comes in a non-threatening form? Most of the INFJs I know are surprisingly adaptable when they are approached as a friend, and are surprisingly implacable when they aren't. For me this is both a strength and a weakness I have.

  6. #16
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty much the same way. Maybe this INFJ is immature and hasn't had the experience to be more proactive. Could this be that opportunity? Could this INFP be the one to help this INFJ go to the next level of development? Never know If so, do you agree that an INFJ has it within them to make noticable changes IF they are made aware of it and IF it comes in a non-threatening form? Most of the INFJs I know are surprisingly adaptable when they are approached as a friend, and are surprisingly implacable when they aren't. For me this is both a strength and a weakness I have.
    Anybody regardless of type has it within them to make noticeable changes IF they want to and ONLY if they want to. Being made aware of the problem in a kind way is always a plus, but manipulators and parasites come in all types including INFJ. They are out there and they can spot a kind, accommodating person a mile away. IMO, it's not purp's responsibility to help another adult 'grow up' but if she is willing to invest in her friend in this way, that is a very kind thing for her to do.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #17
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Anybody regardless of type has it within them to make noticeable changes IF they want to and ONLY if they want to. Being made aware of the problem in a kind way is always a plus, but manipulators and parasites come in all types including INFJ. They are out there and they can spot a kind, accommodating person a mile away. IMO, it's not purp's responsibility to help another adult 'grow up' but if she is willing to invest in her friend in this way, that is a very kind thing for her to do.
    Absolutely, INFJs are not immune to being losers and jerks.

    Parasites do come in all types also. I just haven't heard definitely from the INFP in question that this INFJ is that person. The OP actually linked the forum discussing INFJs when in the grip of their inferior function so I thought the focus was how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ who was of at least some emotional importance to the INFP. Wouldn't starting with the reasonable approach help "flush" out whether or not this INFJ is just obtuse right now because they are immature and not handling things very well or just a parasite. For the INFJ to spot a accomodating INFP and NOT CARE about their feelings, wouldn't the feelings need to be presented to the INFJ to test this theory out.

    It is not the INFPs responsibility to bail out the INFJs bad decision if that is what it was. No argument form me. I say get medieval. However, the INFP as a friend/roommate DOES have the responsibility of letting the PERSON IN QUESTION know what is on her mind AT LEAST as much as has been given to us, two strangers on a forum. If the INFJ in question doesn't have as full a picture of the feelings of the INFP as WE have, then I think holding them to some harsh standard is premature.

    But yes, INFJs are not above being effing useless and ignorant. IF this is the case, then I have no patience for this lousy INFJ either. I just have not heard anything from the OP that says reasonable steps to broach the full import of what is going on has happened yet. I try to keep my temper on a leash until I am sure that the purp deserves it. I usually do this by making a calm, mature attempt to have a serious conversation with the goal being to arrive at a more mutually acceptable arrangement. The person may have no idea of the anger they are causing me and it may get remedied easily. If I come with anger then I am going to get anger back more often then not, thus fulfilling my own prophecy.

  8. #18
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Absolutely, INFJs are not immune to being losers and jerks.

    Parasites do come in all types also. I just haven't heard definitely from the INFP in question that this INFJ is that person. The OP actually linked the forum discussing INFJs when in the grip of their inferior function so I thought the focus was how to deal with an unhealthy INFJ who was of at least some emotional importance to the INFP. Wouldn't starting with the reasonable approach help "flush" out whether or not this INFJ is just obtuse right now because they are immature and not handling things very well or just a parasite. For the INFJ to spot a accomodating INFP and NOT CARE about their feelings, wouldn't the feelings need to be presented to the INFJ to test this theory out.

    It is not the INFPs responsibility to bail out the INFJs bad decision if that is what it was. No argument form me. I say get medieval. However, the INFP as a friend/roommate DOES have the responsibility of letting the PERSON IN QUESTION know what is on her mind AT LEAST as much as has been given to us, two strangers on a forum. If the INFJ in question doesn't have as full a picture of the feelings of the INFP as WE have, then I think holding them to some harsh standard is premature.

    But yes, INFJs are not above being effing useless and ignorant. IF this is the case, then I have no patience for this lousy INFJ either. I just have not heard anything from the OP that says reasonable steps to broach the full import of what is going on has happened yet. I try to keep my temper on a leash until I am sure that the purp deserves it. I usually do this by making a calm, mature attempt to have a serious conversation with the goal being to arrive at a more mutually acceptable arrangement. The person may have no idea of the anger they are causing me and it may get remedied easily. If I come with anger then I am going to get anger back more often then not, thus fulfilling my own prophecy.
    I'm sure you are the voice of reason, but you are also a newb. Granted, the OP and I aren't what you would call close, be we have been on the forum together for over a year and admittedly, I get protective. This isn't the first time her roomie has been a problem or tried to leave her holding the bag. If it was the first time, I'd be prone to being more sympathetic toward the INFJ.

    I also know prplchknz is a responsible, reasonable person who can sort through the advice she gets here and decide what to use, what to toss, and what to save for later. *shrug*
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #19
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I think really I feel like I was manipulated into this dog. Because, I was like I'm out of baking soda (I was making pancakes) and I didn't feel like going to the store, so I asked my room mate. She made me promise we'd go get a dog that day. And when I promise I will not go back on them. She knows this, and I feel like I probably would have gone to the store in the reverse and not asked for anything in return except maybe "well I was going to switch my clothes from the washer to the dryer, could you please do that?" not even making her promise. I should have gotten off my lazy ass and gone myself, would have not been in this mess.

    Also I'm being a little preememtive on this. But I know I've been in situations with her where she does stuff and takes care of things then all of a sudden decides she doesn't want to deal or doesn't have time and I get kinda manipulated into taking care of things for her. So she is taking care of the dog, but I'm also paranoid.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #20
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    MM is correct about the needs focus of your stance being best. I am always getting scathed by INFJ, because I approach with Te dictates and don't want to show need or vulnerability.

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