[Jungian Cognitive Functions] INJs and Extraverted Sensing

[nottaprettygal]

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Heh. I thought of the same thing when I read that. Is meditation even considered an Se activity though? Regardless, meditation in the traditional sense is not for me.

This thread was very helpful for me. When I am confronted with Se activities that are necessary for me to do, I engage in all three qualities of inferior Se. I would be careful assuming that those things indicate some sort of mental disorder. That seems quite extreme.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Excerpt from "Was That Really Me" By Naomi Quenk

TYPICAL PROVOCATIONS OR TRIGGERS

Dealing with details, especially in an unfamiliar, can trigger inferior Extraverted Sensing in Introverted Intuitive types. In fact, these types frequently mention that feeling overwhelmed by details often provokes characteristic inferior reactions. Unexpected events that interrupt planned activities can also unsettle INTJs and INFJs enough to arouse their inferior function. One INFJ said that "sometimes it can be something like having to get from the airport to a hotel. It can happen if I'm driving a rental car in a foreign city, and even if I'm in my own country."

Another INFJ reports having the following response when she has to deal with unfamiliar details like taxes and finances:

"I feel like I become instantly stupid. I truly don't seem to be able to take in the explainations and process them. I have such anxiety I can't get through it. I feel panicky inside and desperately look for help from someone who can talk to me on my level so that I can slowly begin to understand."

An INTJ finally turned the accounting for his small business over to an accountant when he found himself becoming tense, irritable, and depressed whenever he had to work on the books.

Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention "too much extraverting" as a common trigger for inferior function responses. They describe being provoked by such things as crowds, people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others. The either express irritation at people's questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.

TRIGGERS AND STRESSORS AT WORK

Work settings tht do not permit sufficient autonomy or that offer few opportunities to work alone and intensively, and that do not provide the opportunity to be creative, think independently, and accomplish goals, are extremely stressful and undesirable for Introverted Intuitive types. INTJs and INFJs hold very high standards of excellence for themselves and others, so issues of competence at work are quite important.

INTJs in particular are intolerant of and impatient with ineffeciency and with others' avoidance of problems. They like to get to the heart of an issue immediately, which sometimes makes others uncomfortable. An INTJ finds it stressful "when there are multiple 'agendas' at play so that there is no sense of purpose or direction about an issue that may be a legitimate problem." She added, "I don't suffer fools or foolishness well. I like to focus on real issues." Other INTJs mention as stressful "noise, confusion, lack of order and direction," "working with others and not being able to get alone," "being lef by the nose, not having a degree of autonomy."

INFJs are stressed by similar work characteristics, often focusing on the inability to achieve their vision of growth and development for people. Being unable to work at their own pace and within their own structure is also stressful. An INFJ cited as work stressors "lack of organization and vision by management." And another INFJ is stressed by "unclear goals and expectations and others' unwillingness to fit into my flexible time line." Both INTJs and INFJs find that dealing with details (often seen b them as irrelevant to the task at hand) is extremely stressful.

In a work situation in which the particular stressors for Introverted Intuive types continue over long periods, INTJs and INFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of "grip" behavior will be frequent and pervasive. When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, they are likely to lose touch with their natural confidence and pleasure in their Intuition and come across as picky, fault-finding, narrow-minded, and unimaginative.

THE FORMS OF THE INFERIOR FUNCTION

INTJs and INFJs appear less likely, than olther Introverted types to get much pleasure from a lessening of introverted "inhibitions", although some INTJ males describe becoming more extraverted in a positive, sociable way. An INFJ said he is "surprisingly more extraverted, especially in the company of strangers; more expressive and less contained." Female Introverted Intuitive types mention increased sociability less frequently, possibly because they, like other women who are Introverts, are encouraged (or required) to develop social skills. However, for the most part, the obsessiveness and discomfort that accompany extraverting their Sensing function is experienced as overwhelmingly distressing for both male and female INTJs and INFJs.

As dominant Introverted Intuition loses it's position of primacy, INTJs and INFJs start to lose their characteristic wide-ranging, global perspective. Their field of operation narrows considerably, and their range of acknowledged possibilities becomes limited and idiosyncratic. They may make more factual mistakes and become careless with spelling and grammar. "I am unable to cope with simple decisions and problems," said an INTJ woman. "I'm frustrated by the physical world - I lose things, drop them, hate them. I don't know what to wear or what to eat. I'm impatient with people and can't read or concentrate." An INTJ said she obsessively looks for the "right" factual piece of information that will solve the problem. "I notice things not put away around the house - things that are broken or things to do." As their hold on their dominant and auxillary functions further diminishes, the qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing manifest in an obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures (I woul change this wording to "overindulgence in sensate stimulus, to be more precisely descriptive of the phenomenon), and an adversarial attitude toward the outside world. For INTJs, tertiary Feeling may abet the process in that the "facts" (real or invented) on which the INTJ obsesses are often used as "proof" that others discount, devalue, or dislike the INTJ. Similar "facts" may by used by the INFJ's tertiary Thinking to prove that the INFJ is inadequate or a failure.

 

[sleepless]

Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.

True that.

Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go off "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.

I think the author does a very credible job of describing the particular types of "meditation' that appeal to INJs.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.

In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.

 

[sleepless]

I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.

OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.

Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

* You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.

Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

* This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?

Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.

This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?

 

[Haphazard]

Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

Yes.

That generally puts me to sleep. This is actually often what I have to do to fall asleep, because during the day my mind is usually so busy chasing whatever bubbles up to the surface that it needs something to slow it down. If an object loses all of its momentum, it will stop.

There are certain types of people, who, if they're sitting still for long enough, they will fall asleep. This is how I work mentally.

 

[sleepless]

You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.

Hm, I see. I think we have a different approach to it, you use meditation as a way to *shape* your Ni in various ways, to counter real-life challenges, and this is something I have done a little... but now I rather use it, as I was saying, as a way of strengthening Se...

This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?

OK, first, my previous post:

I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. [...]

This is a bit inspired by John Beebe's work on MBTI types, which says that the 4th function is the "cause" of our 1st. I don't know if you're familiar with it, otherwise you can read through one of my previous threads (and possibly the link in my first post, though I admit it's long).

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...es/7238-your-personality-s-highest-value.html

As I understand it, for example Ni-Se are on the same "axis" and as an INJ the aim of Ni should be to "reach" or "embrace" Se. You can use Se for itself, but then you lose your Ni, or you can neglect it altogether just to have it "revolt" and take over. Also, any function that just "stays within itself" loses perspective; and many INJs are interested in art, for example, as it expresses Ni in a Se way.

Now, on meditation: when sitting down to meditate, you are your normal Ni self; it's not like you lose Ni and start indulging in Se, as otherwise happens sometimes. As I understand it, Ni is directed to the unconscious/half-conscious processes that go on inside us all the time and, in meditation, to maintain and "purify" your Ni is part of what you're doing. Everyone can become more aware of the constant flow of thoughts in your mind, but Ni does this from the outside, without identifying with the thoughts. The other part of meditation would be Se then, essentially awareness of your sensual impressions. And as the judging functions go away altogether, maybe that is what makes Se and Ni able to "reach each other"... as essentially, when you meditate there is only one perception.

I think I could write a lot on this subject, but I have to think about it some more (and keep meditating!) to be able to put it down in words... you get what I mean though?

This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?

Hm... well, I'm not sure, it was just an idea... but in a trance you will really relax your body and all, and if we assume once more that the judging functions just stay out of it... I don't think you would lose your Se.

But I don't know, I get a feeling I might just be playing with words here... haha, I'm too tired, I don't know if all this really relates to the MBTI or if I'm giving the functions new meanings... have to read more function theory... later... now I have to sleep. :zzz:

 

[Apollanaut]

Interesting debate on the nature of meditation and it's importance to INJs. In fact, this whole thread has been enlightening - thanks for starting it, Martian Manifesto! My own Ni has been triggered into action, there are so many related ideas pouring in that I'll try and limit myself to one topic per posting!

I use a range of meditational tools, including self-hypnosis, trance, guided visualisations and active meditations (eg, walking/doing chores/gardening). Which one I use depends on my need.

If I've been using Ni a great deal, then I prefer an active Sensing-type meditation to compensate for all the time spent inside my head.

However, if I've not had a chance to "go inside" for a long time (usually due to the requirements of my job) then I will use a quiet, trance-type technique to reconnect with my neglected Ni.

It's all a question of maintaining balance in my life. I get into trouble if I ignore one side of myself for too long, which can be either Sensing or Intuition.

I would also agree with previous suggestions that INJs naturally spend a lot of time in a light trance-type state. In fact, I would postulate that it may not be possible to use Ni without doing so! I certainly notice this in myself a lot, and since I learned some self-hypnosis techniques I can choose to do so at need. Learning how to do this has positively transformed my life in so many ways.

 

[Maabus1999]

True that.

Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

Yes. I find meditation to clear my mind and focus to be very important. Working out, and my new hobby, Yoga (pretty cool isn't it!). Actually not bad! Anyways, I can focus my mind very well but as this thread points out, Se does a wrecking ball on me at times and the best way to clear that out is by doing something that clears that out.

Working out is the best way for me to calm my "aggressive and adversarial attitude" I get at times when I start extroverting. If I don't, while like others said, I won't hurt them physically, but I need release.

As for obsession with details? Only if something makes me self conscious about it. Doesn't happen too often.

One of the funniest things I have done in my life is open a door and walk into the edge of the door as I'm opening it. I have done this three times in recent memory. Boy, does that hurt:steam: All doors should be like Star Trek!

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Hm, I see. I think we have a different approach to it, you use meditation as a way to *shape* your Ni in various ways, to counter real-life challenges, and this is something I have done a little... but now I rather use it, as I was saying, as a way of strengthening Se...


OK, first, my previous post:


This is a bit inspired by John Beebe's work on MBTI types, which says that the 4th function is the "cause" of our 1st. I don't know if you're familiar with it, otherwise you can read through one of my previous threads (and possibly the link in my first post, though I admit it's long).

http://www.typologycentral.com/foru...es/7238-your-personality-s-highest-value.html

As I understand it, for example Ni-Se are on the same "axis" and as an INJ the aim of Ni should be to "reach" or "embrace" Se. You can use Se for itself, but then you lose your Ni, or you can neglect it altogether just to have it "revolt" and take over. Also, any function that just "stays within itself" loses perspective; and many INJs are interested in art, for example, as it expresses Ni in a Se way.

Now, on meditation: when sitting down to meditate, you are your normal Ni self; it's not like you lose Ni and start indulging in Se, as otherwise happens sometimes. As I understand it, Ni is directed to the unconscious/half-conscious processes that go on inside us all the time and, in meditation, to maintain and "purify" your Ni is part of what you're doing. Everyone can become more aware of the constant flow of thoughts in your mind, but Ni does this from the outside, without identifying with the thoughts. The other part of meditation would be Se then, essentially awareness of your sensual impressions. And as the judging functions go away altogether, maybe that is what makes Se and Ni able to "reach each other"... as essentially, when you meditate there is only one perception.

I think I could write a lot on this subject, but I have to think about it some more (and keep meditating!) to be able to put it down in words... you get what I mean though?


Hm... well, I'm not sure, it was just an idea... but in a trance you will really relax your body and all, and if we assume once more that the judging functions just stay out of it... I don't think you would lose your Se.

But I don't know, I get a feeling I might just be playing with words here... haha, I'm too tired, I don't know if all this really relates to the MBTI or if I'm giving the functions new meanings... have to read more function theory... later... now I have to sleep. :zzz:

* Your Ni never turns off. If you think that in any way you are mistaken. This may lead to the misunderstanding of the meditation I am speaking of. The meditation you are speaking of is good for beginning. It lets you be aware of your Ni and to "ping" with your Se. This is good but it is only mid-way on the totem pole. Here is a rough idea of how the power level of your Ni goes:
1) Sleeping
2) active imagination
3) meditating
4) normal
5) in the grip of your inferior function

Your Ni is very very "shy". This is why when Se comes in too much it "shuts down". But it doesn't shut down, it goes underground. It is still informing you, but you don't know it. Which is of course dangerous....but also possibly enlightening. Here's why: The Ni does NOT like to be monitored. When you are meditating and "just noting the things floating by...thouthts or stimulus", well your Ni is going to be like an artistic performer who is being watched. You will get to "see" the Ni very clearly from your bhuda-esque position, but the Ni WILL NOT BE PERFORMING ANYWHERE NEAR TOP CAPACITY. In order to do this you must "step thru your intuitions" which you are not doing. This is why I asked for clarification.

I will give you specific examples to clarify my point.

1) I have a wonderul vision in a sleeping dream or waking revery. It can be quite good to do the mediation your are talking about to do general Ni inquiry and get some bearings. Make some observations as you were saying. However, this is VERY LOW MOJO for an INFJ. INFJs are capable of much grander stuff. If this vision/idea/train of thought/etc has been mulled over the way you described then it is reading for the next stage of "baking". You will need to WRITE it out. Or SPEAK it out. Or ACT it out. Or DRAW it out. This will be either Fe or Se, both is preferred as you get further along finding out what your Ni has given you. Ask most most artists and ESPECIALLY INFJs and they will tell you that when they are writing a scene, or creating a character, or building a tune hook,etc...they DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO COME OUT UNTIL THEY DO IT. Even though their Ni gave them an idea of what was going to happen (incoming Ni) and they tried to "listen" to it (Ni being monitered and "pinged" as you are describing, they still don't know what is going to happen or be created until they DO IT.

Why? Because the Ni does not like to be monitored. That's why the dreaming is the most powerful form (ask Carl Jung...he was a much more powerful intuitive than Beebe, and most agree he was either an INFJ or INTJ...either way he was built like us...I'm going with him). Lucid dreaming is the next most powerful form. This is when you are in a dream state while still awake. This is what artists use (well INFJs anyway) at the height of their creative cycle. When I write, I do not know what it will be until I do it...THEN I say "oh, I guess that is what my Ni wanted say". The kind of meditation you are doing is good to know what you got rattling around in there but they will still be in there. This elements will build and build until an INFJ has found it's "voice". If the INFJ does not give voice to these Ni elements, they will make for some nice crazy time. This isn't my theory, it is Mr. Jung's.

For the Ni to work at it's highest it must be given a chance to EXPRESS itself through and E form (Fe and/or Se) without any monitoring of the person. The person finds out what the Ni had to say afterwards. Everyone could benefit from living their life as an artistic instrument, INFJs don't really have much choice. It seems to me your focus is on becoming calm and having a zen like control and relationship with your Se. This is a goal of many young INFJs. It doesn't work. Your Ni thoughts are stronger than any Se and they are stronger than YOU. When YOU are watching your Ni, when YOU are hanging with your Ni, when YOU are in any way directing your Ni...then your Ni will give you some stuff but it is going to save the really good shiet to when YOU go to effign sleep. By you I am referring to your ego. Your Ni is linked to your inner child, your mana, etc...seriously powerful archtypes...way more powerful than your ego. Your ego taggin along virtually insures a low level interaction. I know that you said you step away from yourself. But you are still there, and your Ni knows it. By the way, it will help your endeavors immensely to see your Ni as a creature inside you that has your best interests at heart. As long as you are still tagging along, the Ni inside you will go slow and weak (still awesome compared to non INJs) because it doesn't want to blow your mind. The CONSCIOUS mind can't handle it. This is why the Ni uses IDEAL opportuities to give you big stuff. It gives them to you when you dream. We usually can't handle the "weight" of such pure Ni gifts so we forget them quickly to protect our fragile ego mind. It also happens when an INFJ is speaking passionately about something to somebody of worth (Fe). Truths will be spoken that the INFJ didn't even know were inside. This also happens when the INFJ's mind WANDERS on Se stuff. The body will teach you things by being moved DIRECTLY by the Ni and not by you. This is why so many documented a-ha moments happen when you are cooking, driving, walking, cleaning, etc....because YOU ARE NOT trying to be an effing Jedi and become one with you Ni.

Most INFJs are deathly afraid of what would come out of them if they were EVER to go into Fe or Se without THEM driving the Ni. They might actually speak truth and we all know how much trouble that can get you into. You might reveal when of your deep Ni impressions which would leave you exquisitly vulnerable. Yet it is exactly this that takes an INFJ to the next level. I have learned so much from myself by allowing my Ni to flow directly through me while I (ego) keep myself occupied with either a pleasant/interesting Fe or Se activity.

When I have these a-has then I may need to turn them about some to see what I have...again, I may go back to the less deep Ni meditation you were referring to. I am not belittling it at all. It is an integral part to an INFJs complete repetoire. It is good to get an idea of what the Ni wants to show you and it is good to play with a large Ni gift once it has been given to you.

 

[sleepless]

That generally puts me to sleep. This is actually often what I have to do to fall asleep, because during the day my mind is usually so busy chasing whatever bubbles up to the surface that it needs something to slow it down. If an object loses all of its momentum, it will stop.

There are certain types of people, who, if they're sitting still for long enough, they will fall asleep. This is how I work mentally.

OK. I could argue here that if this makes you fall asleep it's because you're somehow doing it the wrong way, but if you see no need for the kind of awareness I'm speaking of, then in a sense it might not be *your thing*. And yet, if it calms your mind as you describe it, then that's good.

Apollanaut/Maabus,

great to hear that you too are into these things.


MM,

it is becoming clear to me that even if we're both INFJs, we are quite different. I can see your perspective, yet mine is different. Let's see if we can sort things out.

Your Ni never turns off. If you think that in any way you are mistaken. This may lead to the misunderstanding of the meditation I am speaking of. The meditation you are speaking of is good for beginning. It lets you be aware of your Ni and to "ping" with your Se. This is good but it is only mid-way on the totem pole. Here is a rough idea of how the power level of your Ni goes:
1) Sleeping
2) active imagination
3) meditating
4) normal
5) in the grip of your inferior function

First of all, I don't often have vivid dreams, lucid dreams or anyhow inspirational dreams. They are mostly a completely meaningless, dizzy blur that only mirrors my time awake, if anything. I was interested in dreams when I was younger, and I've had a few recurring dreams which have felt meaningful, and also a few lucid ones. But no matter how much I would want my dreams in general to be more interesting, they are the complete opposite, and I don't really care about them anymore. I think you are assuming too much (as perhaps I do too) that your Ni is everybody's Ni. As the most abstract of the functions, it is probably the hardest one to grasp, to clearly define how it works. "Ni works in mysterious ways", so to speak. I find it fascinating how it works in you, but much of what you speak of is sadly underdeveloped in myself. I have felt it, but I can't really get to it. More on that later.

I didn't see the meditation I practice as a way of of "turning off" Ni, but I can see what you mean. The trance, the special Ni-ish state of mind actually does go away. And your point then is that Ni in this position is not living up to its full potential. If we define Ni as merely a great source of inspiration, then the emptiness of meditation is like watching Ni from the outside, which might at the most be relaxing and let you get some bearings. But is that all there is to it? Ni is partly inspiration, but it is also a direct seeing, and I would say that the seeing in meditation is Ni. That is part of what meditation gives me: it makes me see things more clearly, and in that seeing there is a great potential for change. As clearly as I see a tree in front of me, I lets me see my thoughts and impulses from an outside perspective, the mental state of a person I meet, my own awareness as well as my ego. And behind all these things, there is a great emptiness that cannot be put into words.

Maybe your Ni is primarily inspirational, and mine is more concerned with "insight"? As much inspiration as your Ni seems to give you (*jealous*) meditation could indeed become an obstacle; when you are inspired, your inspirations will need to be expressed, and why wouldn't you do that? I am not that inspired though, and there is nothing I can do about that, except letting go of myself and allow whatever arises to arise.

The thing is that I have really felt "the power" of Ni, the "mana" or whatever you want to call it, and I feel it still every now and then. The strongest thing I've felt is a glimpse of a vision to be communicated to other people, to be expressed primarily through Fe, psychological as well as political. But I cannot do this yet; I am too weak and too much trapped inside my ego, and I *know* that the most direct way to "get to" this vision is the meditation I am practicing. It will take many years, but then I will have access to the power and hopefully be able to do something for the world. And paradoxically, I have to let go of it to get it. This is not imagination; it is (again) a faint but direct seeing that never really goes away, which I can only follow without really knowing where it will lead.

So, I am not trying to control my Ni inspiration or anything like that, which of course wouldn't do any good. But it seems that our intuitions have different emphasis. How much do you recognize yourself in what I have described - insight rather than inspiration?

 

[INA]

There are no INFJ haters out there? A whole thread on how we have a twisted relationship with our Se? Come on, I mean this is too perfect. Take at least one swipe. You'll feel better, I promise.

Not an INJ hater by any stretch, but

I started a previous thread on the INFJ & INTJ's dominant function: Ni

This thread is intended to explore the INJ's inferior function: Se

Let's start the discussion with something I am reading now. Don't want to make this too long so I will just give the main "manfestations" of an INJ "in the grip" of the inferior Se function. They are:

3) Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outside World


All input welcome, serious and the not-so-serious

Enjoy and....attack!

OK - you said not so serious, too, so . . .
My Q: Is number 3 is the flip side of self-absorption? Is INJ a serious contender for "most self-absorbed"? If true, is this only when "in the grip"? Why or Why not?

 

[faith]

Holy cow! This is so eye-opening to me.

I recently began taking graduate classes at a university about 70 miles away. I drive down three times a week (and don't particularly like driving). Naturally there have been the usual frustrations that come with figuring out how to fit into the microculture of a new university: where to park, how to navigate the streets (with a overheating car), where to buy books (of course they're always out of the text you need), why my registration is on hold, how to submit an assignment via the new online system, etc. etc. My boyfriend is also beginning classes nearby, and I've been responsible for setting up his classes and things while he was away. All on top of being suddenly swamped with new studies.

Although I'm so thankful for the opportunity to study, I've found myself in that overly-critical mood for the past month or two. The one where you yell at cabinets for being in your way, obsess about house cleaning, crave an escape novel, and are convinced the world was created just to frustrate you. It's so easy for me to become super-critical about stupid things right now. I haven't been able to figure out what the problem is. I ought to be thrilled through-and-through because I'm finally able to pursue something I care about. What's all this vague antagonism and general angst in place of the joy?

Reading these descriptions has been so enlightening. I see that I haven't been giving myself permission to be worn out by this sudden abundance of obligations that target my weaknesses. (Everyone else can deal with these problems fine, so who am I to complain?) Because I haven't made time to nurture myself with Se, it's been showing up in other ways.

I love playing with my dogs because they engage my Se in a positive way. Walks in the woods, tree-gazing, and star-gazing are also ways I escape and recouperate. I have been refusing to do these things recently because I have so many pressing obligations and don't quite feel I've "earned" them until my work is done first.

Ha. Taught me a lesson, I guess. I'm going to play with my dogs tonight...

 

[Martian Manifesto]

MM,

it is becoming clear to me that even if we're both INFJs, we are quite different. I can see your perspective, yet mine is different. Let's see if we can sort things out.

Okay! This stuff is so fascinating, I can't get enough.



First of all, I don't often have vivid dreams, lucid dreams or anyhow inspirational dreams. They are mostly a completely meaningless, dizzy blur that only mirrors my time awake, if anything. I was interested in dreams when I was younger, and I've had a few recurring dreams which have felt meaningful, and also a few lucid ones. But no matter how much I would want my dreams in general to be more interesting, they are the complete opposite, and I don't really care about them anymore. I think you are assuming too much (as perhaps I do too) that your Ni is everybody's Ni. As the most abstract of the functions, it is probably the hardest one to grasp, to clearly define how it works. "Ni works in mysterious ways", so to speak. I find it fascinating how it works in you, but much of what you speak of is sadly underdeveloped in myself. I have felt it, but I can't really get to it. More on that later.

* I think each person Ni is definitely different, but I do think there are some way that they "operate" that are similary. Stepping through your Ni is one such operating principle. I lucid dream while sleeping and while waking. The sleeping ones tend to be more inspirational and the waking ones tend to be more insightful. My deep Ni moments do not distinguish between what they give me. They give what they want and I am grateful to recieve. When I was younger I tried to "fish" for what I wanted but have since learned to stay out of it's way. So when this happens what I get is Ni stuff that relates to my relationships, my writing, my path in life, others paths in life, what currents events that I am aware of mean in the archtypal timeline sense, etc. I just let it all come and make note, as you do. Once some "themes" present themselves whether they be inspirational or insightful, I will try make some internal tests to see if I can't get a read on what is being presented to me (Ti). This can only go so far and then I am going to need to step through it. I usually use my Fe. On "first drafts" I am alone and project or summon creatures into the room with me. I am aware that these creatures are not really there but they are necessary for me to step thru using Fe because I must "talk to somebody who isn't me". I often summon friends that I know because their energy is very familiar to me. I then "talk" to them about my insight and two things always happen (well they do now that I have been doing it a while). The first is that when I speak out my inspiration or insight it ALWAYS comes out different than I thought (this is why you do this alone!) so that AFTER I speak I think "interesting" and I note it. This will help my mapping of Ni the next time I do a self monitored meditation. I would not be able to get that map point by being with my Ni. The Ni must flow through me. For example, when I am going to talk to a friend with the intent of "moving" them...yes, the infamous INFJ people helping/horrible manipulation. Anyway, I "rehearse" with imaginary versions of the people I am going to talk to. As I try to express the insight I gleaned from communing with my Ni previously to this person, the Ni insight grows and gets more fleshed out. IMHO this is essentialy if you are ever to develop enough strenght to get you "voice". I believe that the "voice" is the primary mojo of INFJs regardless of what form it takes (writing, advocating, supporting, transforming, etc). The second thing that happens is that my delivery just feels "off". Even though the person in the room isn't actually there, I have still created them with my Ni from a real person I know so I just "know" they would ask me a certain question when I said that but I wouldn't know they would ask that question until I speak out load and THEN I just know they would question this or that in this or that way. I then AUTOMATICALLY answer these questions in a natural way as if we were really dialoguing. This expands my Ni as if it was being "pulled' from me instead of my projecting it. This is considered HIGHLY desirable for INFJ in every book I have ever read on the subject. Many books are very specific about the value of getting extraverted close companions (I recommend ENFPs and ENTPs) to pull things out of the INFJ that will remain hidden and IN THE FIRST Ni-ONLY STAGES OF DEVELOPMENT.

I didn't see the meditation I practice as a way of of "turning off" Ni, but I can see what you mean. The trance, the special Ni-ish state of mind actually does go away. And your point then is that Ni in this position is not living up to its full potential. If we define Ni as merely a great source of inspiration, then the emptiness of meditation is like watching Ni from the outside, which might at the most be relaxing and let you get some bearings. But is that all there is to it? Ni is partly inspiration, but it is also a direct seeing, and I would say that the seeing in meditation is Ni. That is part of what meditation gives me: it makes me see things more clearly, and in that seeing there is a great potential for change. As clearly as I see a tree in front of me, I lets me see my thoughts and impulses from an outside perspective, the mental state of a person I meet, my own awareness as well as my ego. And behind all these things, there is a great emptiness that cannot be put into words.

* No you definitely do not turn of the Ni and I didn't think you did. When I said this I was referring to states where you aren't consciously aware of it (ie dreams you don't remember, being in the grip of the inferior function, immersing yourself in the inferior function in a relaxing way, etc). I was referring to the possibility that you may feel that at these times the Ni was "off" and therefore that may have made the need to "touch" you Ni in the meditation you are doing. I could be wrong but I think just being with your Ni is absolutely the foundation for an INFJ, but once you know your "signal stream" and know how to get to it consciously at will (which is what that kind of meditation trains you to do) then there comes the question that haunts every INFJ I know (I don't want to speak for you of course) and that is "okay, so now what does it mean and what am I suppossed to do with it?". For me, my Ni gives me a very good "hunch" but I must field test it to see.

Maybe your Ni is primarily inspirational, and mine is more concerned with "insight"? As much inspiration as your Ni seems to give you (*jealous*) meditation could indeed become an obstacle; when you are inspired, your inspirations will need to be expressed, and why wouldn't you do that? I am not that inspired though, and there is nothing I can do about that, except letting go of myself and allow whatever arises to arise.

* My Ni comes in many forms, but all of them require expression at some point in order to develop them. That's why inventors make prototypes. There are things you just won't know until you 'build it". The Ni is not suppossed to stay inside the INFJ. The INFJ is suppossed to eventually develop the Tertiary Ti so it can discern the inspirations/insights/a-has that the INFJ wants to "get more into" and this is with the intention of finally bringing it to the world at some point. It is in the finding of "how" the INFJ would actually do it, that often helps define the "voice".

The thing is that I have really felt "the power" of Ni, the "mana" or whatever you want to call it, and I feel it still every now and then. The strongest thing I've felt is a glimpse of a vision to be communicated to other people, to be expressed primarily through Fe, psychological as well as political. But I cannot do this yet; I am too weak and too much trapped inside my ego, and I *know* that the most direct way to "get to" this vision is the meditation I am practicing. It will take many years, but then I will have access to the power and hopefully be able to do something for the world. And paradoxically, I have to let go of it to get it. This is not imagination; it is (again) a faint but direct seeing that never really goes away, which I can only follow without really knowing where it will lead.

* That's it! That's it! I get these type of Ni impressions/visions also. If the meditation is taking you closer then rock on. At some point however you are going to have to a) see what ya got. you won't know this until you take it (Ni) out of your pocket (conscious mind). When I have the politcal/psychological insights I definitely use my imaginary friend vetting process (often on long walks in quiet areas...super early in the morning or super late at night works best for me). Eventually this brings me to the point where I just "have" to "test" it out on the real people. These are always friendly and intuitive people at first. Going to people who don't understant you or Ni is just a recipe for getting my psyche beat up. Then to friendly peole who don't know me, and on and on and on. Each stage makes the voice on this stronger, fuller and clearer.

So, I am not trying to control my Ni inspiration or anything like that, which of course wouldn't do any good. But it seems that our intuitions have different emphasis. How much do you recognize yourself in what I have described - insight rather than inspiration?

* I also don't try to control. They free flow and I observe, collect, turn around in my mind and then start deciding which ones to do real world inquiries/experiments with. For example, I didn't want to write. Thought writing was a waste of time. It was only after my inner child lobbed scerario after scenario that I finally capitulated. I still think it's silly and how silly it is that it makes me feel so great to do it.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

Not an INJ hater by any stretch, but

OK - you said not so serious, too, so . . .
My Q: Is number 3 is the flip side of self-absorption? Is INJ a serious contender for "most self-absorbed"? If true, is this only when "in the grip"? Why or Why not?

Contender? I am offended. Proud am I in my self-absorption. Of course, being an INFJ, I think of this as SELF-absorption therefore making it more spiritual. Wow, I am really disgusting myself now. And then of course we should be SELF-absorbed because if we find the gold inside then it will not only help us but everyone, or so we think. We think are inner revelations will be so effing spiffy that the entire world will be changed for the better, once we figure outselves out. Contender? Reigning champs

Only in the grip? Nope, unfortunately. In fact the Ni comes before the Se. We are alredy completely self absorbed (so are INTJs but we go the extra mile and make that shiet personal and then when Se flares up we are freaked that we are not able to touch our Ni world. So when we use our primary Ni we are completely and HAPPILY SELF-absorbed and when we are in the grip we are frustrated and self-absorbed. We are then self-absorbed about how the world is keeping us from getting back to our self-absorption

 

[sleepless]

MM,

thanks for the thread and the discussion, it has definitely given me some new insights on IN(F)J-ness. It's very inspiring to hear of your own "Ni adventures" too. I think I'm done for now though, but maybe I'll start some other thread some day on a similar subject. Good luck with everything, and may the Ni be with you.

 

[Martian Manifesto]

MM,

thanks for the thread and the discussion, it has definitely given me some new insights on IN(F)J-ness. It's very inspiring to hear of your own "Ni adventures" too. I think I'm done for now though, but maybe I'll start some other thread some day on a similar subject. Good luck with everything, and may the Ni be with you.

It was very nice meeting you. May the Ni be with you as well.

 

[Kasper]

Not an INJ hater by any stretch, but

Better effen not be cause I don't wanna have to change my type but I will if you hate em

OK - you said not so serious, too, so . . .
My Q: Is number 3 is the flip side of self-absorption? Is INJ a serious contender for "most self-absorbed"? If true, is this only when "in the grip"? Why or Why not?

Kinda, maybe possibly yes. Why? just gonna go with Martian Manifesto's answer cause I'm drunkish and my answer would sound simpleton compared to that but possibly yes.