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  1. #41
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.
    Heh. I thought of the same thing when I read that. Is meditation even considered an Se activity though? Regardless, meditation in the traditional sense is not for me.

    This thread was very helpful for me. When I am confronted with Se activities that are necessary for me to do, I engage in all three qualities of inferior Se. I would be careful assuming that those things indicate some sort of mental disorder. That seems quite extreme.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Excerpt from "Was That Really Me" By Naomi Quenk

    TYPICAL PROVOCATIONS OR TRIGGERS

    Dealing with details, especially in an unfamiliar, can trigger inferior Extraverted Sensing in Introverted Intuitive types. In fact, these types frequently mention that feeling overwhelmed by details often provokes characteristic inferior reactions. Unexpected events that interrupt planned activities can also unsettle INTJs and INFJs enough to arouse their inferior function. One INFJ said that "sometimes it can be something like having to get from the airport to a hotel. It can happen if I'm driving a rental car in a foreign city, and even if I'm in my own country."

    Another INFJ reports having the following response when she has to deal with unfamiliar details like taxes and finances:

    "I feel like I become instantly stupid. I truly don't seem to be able to take in the explainations and process them. I have such anxiety I can't get through it. I feel panicky inside and desperately look for help from someone who can talk to me on my level so that I can slowly begin to understand."

    An INTJ finally turned the accounting for his small business over to an accountant when he found himself becoming tense, irritable, and depressed whenever he had to work on the books.

    Of the four dominant Introverted types, it is Introverted Intuitive types who most frequently mention "too much extraverting" as a common trigger for inferior function responses. They describe being provoked by such things as crowds, people overload; noisy, busy environments; feeling that their personal space is being invaded; and frequent interruptions. When faced with such provocations, they retreat inside themselves and become intolerant of intrusions by others. The either express irritation at people's questions or do not respond at all to attempts to communicate with them.

    TRIGGERS AND STRESSORS AT WORK

    Work settings tht do not permit sufficient autonomy or that offer few opportunities to work alone and intensively, and that do not provide the opportunity to be creative, think independently, and accomplish goals, are extremely stressful and undesirable for Introverted Intuitive types. INTJs and INFJs hold very high standards of excellence for themselves and others, so issues of competence at work are quite important.

    INTJs in particular are intolerant of and impatient with ineffeciency and with others' avoidance of problems. They like to get to the heart of an issue immediately, which sometimes makes others uncomfortable. An INTJ finds it stressful "when there are multiple 'agendas' at play so that there is no sense of purpose or direction about an issue that may be a legitimate problem." She added, "I don't suffer fools or foolishness well. I like to focus on real issues." Other INTJs mention as stressful "noise, confusion, lack of order and direction," "working with others and not being able to get alone," "being lef by the nose, not having a degree of autonomy."

    INFJs are stressed by similar work characteristics, often focusing on the inability to achieve their vision of growth and development for people. Being unable to work at their own pace and within their own structure is also stressful. An INFJ cited as work stressors "lack of organization and vision by management." And another INFJ is stressed by "unclear goals and expectations and others' unwillingness to fit into my flexible time line." Both INTJs and INFJs find that dealing with details (often seen b them as irrelevant to the task at hand) is extremely stressful.

    In a work situation in which the particular stressors for Introverted Intuive types continue over long periods, INTJs and INFJs may respond quickly and intensely to the triggers described here. This increases the likelihood that their subsequent demonstrations of "grip" behavior will be frequent and pervasive. When persistent stress causes them to be chronically in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, they are likely to lose touch with their natural confidence and pleasure in their Intuition and come across as picky, fault-finding, narrow-minded, and unimaginative.

    THE FORMS OF THE INFERIOR FUNCTION

    INTJs and INFJs appear less likely, than olther Introverted types to get much pleasure from a lessening of introverted "inhibitions", although some INTJ males describe becoming more extraverted in a positive, sociable way. An INFJ said he is "surprisingly more extraverted, especially in the company of strangers; more expressive and less contained." Female Introverted Intuitive types mention increased sociability less frequently, possibly because they, like other women who are Introverts, are encouraged (or required) to develop social skills. However, for the most part, the obsessiveness and discomfort that accompany extraverting their Sensing function is experienced as overwhelmingly distressing for both male and female INTJs and INFJs.

    As dominant Introverted Intuition loses it's position of primacy, INTJs and INFJs start to lose their characteristic wide-ranging, global perspective. Their field of operation narrows considerably, and their range of acknowledged possibilities becomes limited and idiosyncratic. They may make more factual mistakes and become careless with spelling and grammar. "I am unable to cope with simple decisions and problems," said an INTJ woman. "I'm frustrated by the physical world - I lose things, drop them, hate them. I don't know what to wear or what to eat. I'm impatient with people and can't read or concentrate." An INTJ said she obsessively looks for the "right" factual piece of information that will solve the problem. "I notice things not put away around the house - things that are broken or things to do." As their hold on their dominant and auxillary functions further diminishes, the qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing manifest in an obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures (I woul change this wording to "overindulgence in sensate stimulus, to be more precisely descriptive of the phenomenon), and an adversarial attitude toward the outside world. For INTJs, tertiary Feeling may abet the process in that the "facts" (real or invented) on which the INTJ obsesses are often used as "proof" that others discount, devalue, or dislike the INTJ. Similar "facts" may by used by the INFJ's tertiary Thinking to prove that the INFJ is inadequate or a failure.

  3. #43
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard
    Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

    Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.
    True that.

    Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

    I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....
    Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go off "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.
    I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

    These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.

    I think the author does a very credible job of describing the particular types of "meditation' that appeal to INJs.

    As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.
    Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

    It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.

    In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.

  6. #46
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    I am aware of most forms of meditation. My mother taught yoga for many years, my dad did intense visualization exercises in his secret service training, I have done isolation, fasting, extreme endurance events, the kind you are specifying, long walks, free association, trance-state artistic expression, lying on the floor for long periods and just thinking, becoming centered while in areas of natural tranquility, become centered in areas of extreme stress and tactical immediacy.

    These are all types of meditation. None is better. It is what you are trying to acheive. I have been meditating since as long as I can remember. I never use the same method, the same way, twice. Even if I was doing it the way you described, I would personalize it everyday for moment of my life I happened to be in. Somedays, the method you mention would work, others it would not. I use all methods of "meditation" I can think of.
    OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

    As I mentioned in a previous post, I think most INJs are "meditating" by most people's standards most of the time. Most adepts must spend years trying to get into a state where they can access their Ni. INJs do not have this concern. My Ni is there CONSTANTLY. I need zero meditation to get to it. I need to SHUT IT OFF for periods of time to give it a rest. The methods that the author described highlight this feeling among INJs. It may not be true for you but it is dead on for me.

    Also, most of the literature I have read recommends that for the INJ to ever come to terms with their Ni, they MUST STEP THRU THEIR INTUITIONS. It has been explained to me that this can only be done by INFJs with their Fe and only for INTJs with their Te. If the Ni is kept floating around too long without RELEASE then you are in big trouble. You may think you have a "handle" on it and you are "letting go" but you are not. In fact, it has been expressed to me strongly that the Ni intuitions can't be truly processed until they have been "stepped" thru by an extraverted function.

    It is the tendency of INJs to consult exclusively with their inner world. Meditating while focusing on only the Ni can be dangerous. We alredy have a strong tendency to live in our own worlds that nobody can touch or see. That's fine for a standard operating protocol since we are INJs, but the meditation time should be to balance us. I do the kind of meditation you are talking about constantly. If I am not talking (Fe) or immediately engaged in something (Se) then my mind will automatically start the procedure you are talking about. Feel fortunate, my friend. Most people have to work really really hard to get comfortable with their Ni taking the the lead while you just let it do it's thing. But that is not "balancing" me. That is just how I work. Doing a meditation based on this would be just me being me but more seriously.
    Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

    In case you are wondering, I am familiar with the Tibetan Book of the Dead and it's many interpretations. Very useful map, but it doesn't tell you how you would adjust this journey depending on what type you are. Different Types should not meditation the same way. I agree with the INTJs on that.
    Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    OK, wow, that sounds like a lot more experience than I have. I personally need to experiment a bit with those unfamiliar to me. But I think that in the long run, you would do better to find one method and cultivate it, rather than keep running around between various methods which can become a distraction in itself. And to really be able to get somewhere, you must then do it on a regular basis, like 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour in the evening (what ever suits you).

    * You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.

    Maybe I wasn't clear, but what I mean is reaching Se through Ni. Does that make sense? So essentially, meditation to me is about Se, I agree that "Ni meditation" wouldn't bring much to an INJ. You say that most INJs are often meditating by most people's standards; I think I see what you mean and that is not the kind of meditation I'm after. The importance of "Stepping through your intuition" sounds true to me, except that in my case it would be Se, not Fe/Te. Ni being caught up in itself doesn't do any good. Ni is your starting point, and then "Se meditation" strengthens your Se while letting you maintain your Ni perspective, which can be quite transformative.

    * This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?

    Hm, yes... maybe for example a Se Primary could try more trance-like meditation, with your eyes closed, something that would let them reach their Ni? And some type would do best with some visualization method (not me), and so on.
    This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?

  8. #48
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Hmm. People obviously have different ideas of what meditation is. What I mean by it is not some trance-state, not hypnosis, and not some kind of dizzy relaxation that makes you fall asleep. Rather it is, basically, simply to be aware in the present moment, of your mind as well as your body and the outer world, without judging or making comments. Sit upright and comfortable, keep your eyes somewhat open to avoid trance, stay in touch with reality, relax yet be cautious. Watch all impulses, thoughts and feelings that arise, just watch them as they come and go, be aware of your surroundings... this is maybe the simplest, yet the hardest thing to do, as you have to let go of "doing" altogether, and ultimately of yourself. I don't think I can explain really why I think it's so important... I'll consider starting a thread about it one day.
    Yes.

    That generally puts me to sleep. This is actually often what I have to do to fall asleep, because during the day my mind is usually so busy chasing whatever bubbles up to the surface that it needs something to slow it down. If an object loses all of its momentum, it will stop.

    There are certain types of people, who, if they're sitting still for long enough, they will fall asleep. This is how I work mentally.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #49
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    You are partly correct. I am not "jumping" around. You will see this once you try out other methods. In fact you are already using more methods that you know. You are an INFJ. All the methods will take you to different places within your Ni and in different ways. It's like saying, I want to get good at a martial art for example. Wouldn't it better to pick one method and get good at it so you are a master and not a jack of all trades? Yes. Absolutely. BUT you don't fight the same people each day. You don't do the same drills. You don't go at the same intensity. Pro atheletes cycle their routines. Pro businesses cycle their production phases. Pro artists cycle their creative output both in amount and type. Meditation is the same. Use of the Ni is the same. Your Ni is soooo much more powerful than you know. To see what it can do you are going to need to "meditate" in lots of ways. The lots of ways are just different "classes" but the subject is always you and your Ni. Plus if you spar hard everyday for example, you get burned out. This theory applies to physical, emotional and intellectual pursuits.
    Hm, I see. I think we have a different approach to it, you use meditation as a way to *shape* your Ni in various ways, to counter real-life challenges, and this is something I have done a little... but now I rather use it, as I was saying, as a way of strengthening Se...

    This sounds like an important point you are trying to make, but I am not quite sure what you mean by the start with Ni and then Se. Could you give an example please?
    OK, first, my previous post:

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless
    I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. [...]
    This is a bit inspired by John Beebe's work on MBTI types, which says that the 4th function is the "cause" of our 1st. I don't know if you're familiar with it, otherwise you can read through one of my previous threads (and possibly the link in my first post, though I admit it's long).

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...est-value.html

    As I understand it, for example Ni-Se are on the same "axis" and as an INJ the aim of Ni should be to "reach" or "embrace" Se. You can use Se for itself, but then you lose your Ni, or you can neglect it altogether just to have it "revolt" and take over. Also, any function that just "stays within itself" loses perspective; and many INJs are interested in art, for example, as it expresses Ni in a Se way.

    Now, on meditation: when sitting down to meditate, you are your normal Ni self; it's not like you lose Ni and start indulging in Se, as otherwise happens sometimes. As I understand it, Ni is directed to the unconscious/half-conscious processes that go on inside us all the time and, in meditation, to maintain and "purify" your Ni is part of what you're doing. Everyone can become more aware of the constant flow of thoughts in your mind, but Ni does this from the outside, without identifying with the thoughts. The other part of meditation would be Se then, essentially awareness of your sensual impressions. And as the judging functions go away altogether, maybe that is what makes Se and Ni able to "reach each other"... as essentially, when you meditate there is only one perception.

    I think I could write a lot on this subject, but I have to think about it some more (and keep meditating!) to be able to put it down in words... you get what I mean though?

    This sounds like a meditation technique designed to help you step outside your Se not step thru, but I could be mistaken. Could you elaborate some for me?
    Hm... well, I'm not sure, it was just an idea... but in a trance you will really relax your body and all, and if we assume once more that the judging functions just stay out of it... I don't think you would lose your Se.

    But I don't know, I get a feeling I might just be playing with words here... haha, I'm too tired, I don't know if all this really relates to the MBTI or if I'm giving the functions new meanings... have to read more function theory... later... now I have to sleep. :zzz:

  10. #50
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
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    Interesting debate on the nature of meditation and it's importance to INJs. In fact, this whole thread has been enlightening - thanks for starting it, Martian Manifesto! My own Ni has been triggered into action, there are so many related ideas pouring in that I'll try and limit myself to one topic per posting!

    I use a range of meditational tools, including self-hypnosis, trance, guided visualisations and active meditations (eg, walking/doing chores/gardening). Which one I use depends on my need.

    If I've been using Ni a great deal, then I prefer an active Sensing-type meditation to compensate for all the time spent inside my head.

    However, if I've not had a chance to "go inside" for a long time (usually due to the requirements of my job) then I will use a quiet, trance-type technique to reconnect with my neglected Ni.

    It's all a question of maintaining balance in my life. I get into trouble if I ignore one side of myself for too long, which can be either Sensing or Intuition.

    I would also agree with previous suggestions that INJs naturally spend a lot of time in a light trance-type state. In fact, I would postulate that it may not be possible to use Ni without doing so! I certainly notice this in myself a lot, and since I learned some self-hypnosis techniques I can choose to do so at need. Learning how to do this has positively transformed my life in so many ways.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

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