User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 68

  1. #31
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unconvinced View Post
    this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

    is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).
    The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.

    Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #32
    Junior Member unconvinced's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    uman
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    The line between personality and personality disorder is very, very fuzzy, indeed.
    well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.

    Also, there is a difference between these sorts of things happening sometimes and happening all the time. One can be drunk and not be an alcoholic, necessarily.
    agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.
    to accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also dream; not only plan, but also believe--anatole france

  3. #33
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by unconvinced View Post
    well, the people in the passage describing their behavior didn't seem happy with it, so that is where i draw the line--if what you do makes you unhappy or makes you feel badly about yourself, then i think maybe it's a problem.
    True.

    agreed, but negative thoughts have a very bad way of becoming habitual, which is very damaging to the individual--including behaviors that are indicative of disorders in a type description seems a little irresponsible--maybe people who could get help won't because they think that is just how they are and nothing can be done about it.
    Do you really believe that?

    Disorders are... well. Thrown around. Many times irresponsibly. Disorders as labels can do the exact same thing.

    What I see from this is which way negative Se leans the structure, not that the structure has fallen... and also, there are a lot of descriptions, I remember, with enneagram, that try to play them as pathological. This may be the same way.

    Being comfortable is the main goal. Whether they are indicative of disorders or not is frankly beside the point.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #34
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    There is a point. That would have been the point why I accepted the text.

    Not everyone sees things proclaimed as disorders as disorders. One can perceive things differently. What can be good and what can be bad.

    Some people see the very description of a possible natural state as an opportunity for change.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #35
    Senior Mugwump Apollanaut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/sp
    Posts
    550

    Default

    I own both editions of Naomi Quenk's books on the inferior function and tend to agree with her descriptions of how inferior Se manifests in INJs.

    In fact, her descriptions were so on the nail for me that it was the final verification of my type as INFJ.

    That being said, each INJ will manifest the negative qualities of Se in different ways, according to our interests, past history and current life circumstances. For what it's worth, here are my personal descriptions.

    1. Obsessive focus on external data.

    This hits me when I spend too long doing detailed work. Unfortunately, my job requires this from me. I am a perfectionist when it comes to detail, I obsess over minute, fine details, trying to get them as perfect as possible. When I check other people's work I can spot the smallest typos and spelling mistakes, but I can get very defensive and upset when I make such errors. If I'm tired, I can go round and round in circles, trying to perfect my work, but actually stuffing it up and making more errors as I start to lose control.

    At home, I'm likely to go into obsessive cleaning/tidying mode - unable to break the cycle and get the downtime I desparately need until I've completed a demanding list of chores. I get annoyed if my partner interrupts me when I'm in this state - I can easily tip over into stage 3) anger at this point.

    2. Overindulgence.

    Happens a lot when I've had too many interruptions or changes of plans in one day. This is when I "zone out" and get stuck on some sensory activity. This can be binge eating, but is more likely to involve a visual stimulus for me. For example, I surf the internet for hours, or scan through TV channels unendingly. At first, this can be pleasurable, but If I get stuck it can be become ver unpleasant. The speed of surfing/skimming tends to increase, and the info which attracts me gets more and more shallow (crap reality TV, for example). When I'm in this state, what I really need is sleep, but I can find myself staying up half the night and then getting very upset with myself for doing this. I may be so wound up that I cannot get to sleep at all, in which case the behaviour is likely to carry over to the next day (Urghhh!!).

    3. Adversarial Attitude.

    This happens if I've spent too long extraverting and is most noticable if there is conflict around me. I build up a charge of physical energy in my body which eventually has to be released. I have evolved enough that I can feel when this is happening, and will state this out loud, but I cannot prevent the energy buildup. It's best if I can escape from the stressful situation completely. This allows me to dissipate the energy by walking at a fast pace until I feel better.

    If I am prevented from doing this, then sooner or later there will be an explosion from me. I am a gentle person by nature, so I will not hurt others, but I may pick up objects and slam them down hard, throw things at walls and rant and rave out loud. I've been known to start hitting myself on a few occasions. At the same time this is happening, part of me is furious that I have allowed myself to get so worked up, and this tends to make things even worse. I normally end by dramatically storming out of a room, slamming the door violently behind me.

    All of these behaviours are clear warning signals to INJs that we are out of balance in our lives. Living with dominant Ni can be very intense and all-consuming at times (I have been known to forget to eat when caught up in Ni): the antidote is to get out and have some fun, relaxation and healthy self-indugence. Best therapy for me is being in touch with nature, but a good TV show (comedy or Sci-Fi/fantasy is second best.

    If we don't take the time to do these things, then our inferior Se will rise up, take control and force us to do them in an unhealthy or obsessive way instead.
    INFJ 9w1 sx/sp/so

    "A wizard is never late. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to." - Gandalf The Grey

    And if I only could,
    I'd make a deal with God,
    And I'd get him to swap our places,
    Be running up that road,
    Be running up that hill,
    With no problems.

    - Kate Bush

  6. #36
    Member sleepless's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    81

    Default

    I would like to point out that even if Se can act destructively, as described here, you shouldn't see it as a "bad" function. In fact, this is also the very function that Ni is, or should be, aiming at. Just as, for example, the INFP needs Te to defend and advocate their Fi values, or as the INTP needs Fe to actually reach others with their ideas, the INJ needs Se to express their Ni, to give a sense of meaning to the outer world. This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.

  7. #37
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Posts
    6,707

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    This can be temporarily or partly achieved through art, dance or being careful with what you eat for example, but I think the most obvious way to acheive it is through meditation. I would almost say that all INJs *should* practice meditation; it is like made for us. Of course that is completely up to you, but unless you are completely happy with your life, unless you have nothing left to learn, you might want to consider it.
    Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

    Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #38
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollanaut View Post
    I own both editions of Naomi Quenk's books on the inferior function and tend to agree with her descriptions of how inferior Se manifests in INJs.

    In fact, her descriptions were so on the nail for me that it was the final verification of my type as INFJ.

    That being said, each INJ will manifest the negative qualities of Se in different ways, according to our interests, past history and current life circumstances. For what it's worth, here are my personal descriptions.

    1. Obsessive focus on external data.

    This hits me when I spend too long doing detailed work. Unfortunately, my job requires this from me. I am a perfectionist when it comes to detail, I obsess over minute, fine details, trying to get them as perfect as possible. When I check other people's work I can spot the smallest typos and spelling mistakes, but I can get very defensive and upset when I make such errors. If I'm tired, I can go round and round in circles, trying to perfect my work, but actually stuffing it up and making more errors as I start to lose control.

    At home, I'm likely to go into obsessive cleaning/tidying mode - unable to break the cycle and get the downtime I desparately need until I've completed a demanding list of chores. I get annoyed if my partner interrupts me when I'm in this state - I can easily tip over into stage 3) anger at this point.

    2. Overindulgence.

    Happens a lot when I've had too many interruptions or changes of plans in one day. This is when I "zone out" and get stuck on some sensory activity. This can be binge eating, but is more likely to involve a visual stimulus for me. For example, I surf the internet for hours, or scan through TV channels unendingly. At first, this can be pleasurable, but If I get stuck it can be become ver unpleasant. The speed of surfing/skimming tends to increase, and the info which attracts me gets more and more shallow (crap reality TV, for example). When I'm in this state, what I really need is sleep, but I can find myself staying up half the night and then getting very upset with myself for doing this. I may be so wound up that I cannot get to sleep at all, in which case the behaviour is likely to carry over to the next day (Urghhh!!).

    3. Adversarial Attitude.

    This happens if I've spent too long extraverting and is most noticable if there is conflict around me. I build up a charge of physical energy in my body which eventually has to be released. I have evolved enough that I can feel when this is happening, and will state this out loud, but I cannot prevent the energy buildup. It's best if I can escape from the stressful situation completely. This allows me to dissipate the energy by walking at a fast pace until I feel better.

    If I am prevented from doing this, then sooner or later there will be an explosion from me. I am a gentle person by nature, so I will not hurt others, but I may pick up objects and slam them down hard, throw things at walls and rant and rave out loud. I've been known to start hitting myself on a few occasions. At the same time this is happening, part of me is furious that I have allowed myself to get so worked up, and this tends to make things even worse. I normally end by dramatically storming out of a room, slamming the door violently behind me.

    All of these behaviours are clear warning signals to INJs that we are out of balance in our lives. Living with dominant Ni can be very intense and all-consuming at times (I have been known to forget to eat when caught up in Ni): the antidote is to get out and have some fun, relaxation and healthy self-indugence. Best therapy for me is being in touch with nature, but a good TV show (comedy or Sci-Fi/fantasy is second best.

    If we don't take the time to do these things, then our inferior Se will rise up, take control and force us to do them in an unhealthy or obsessive way instead.
    Thank you so much for sharing! I am so similar but the manifestations are slightly different as all INFJs are of course diffirent. But the similarities are staggering. When I read her book I was blown away. Her book and the book by Lenore Thomson (Personality Type: An Owner's Manual) have been extremely helpful in helping me understand how my levers work.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    180

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Meditation is not made for us. I invariably fall asleep or end up making myself sick with places I do not want my brain to go.

    Why the hell do people keep saying this? It may be a 'peaceful' thing to do, but there is no room for peace in my mind.
    True that.

    Most of the INJs that I know all like to acheive a "meditative state" but it is not the mellow type you think of normally and more of a supreme state of mastery over their Ni.

    I think INJs mind needs to "pull back" every now and then so it can let itself reconfigure without annoying input. INJs I think "meditate" almost constantly by most people standards. So "normal" meditation might not cut it. I find that I reach these states of control much better by active imagination and active meditation. For myself, I usually have better luck with yoga, cooking, working out, long walks, grappling with friends who I am very close with (INFJs, INTJs because we are so in synch we don't even need to talk that much). I think that is what most of the "good" manifestations of using the Se well for an INJ seem to look like. I will get the stuff from the book that pertains to the this. Have it in a few....

  10. #40
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Posts
    180

    Default

    Excerpt from "Was That Really Me?" by Naomi Quenk:

    EXPRESSIONS THROUGH INTERESTS & HOBBIES

    For Introverted Intuitive types, relaxing their dominant and auxillary functions may occur through such sensual pleasures as eating, exercising and gardening. One INTJ especially enjoys and appreciates sunshine in spring, autumn and winter. Another like to "go somewhere beautiful - mountains, ocean water". INFJs often mention the pleasant luxury of an afternoon nap. Other Introverted Intuitive types describe craving very hot curries,or escaping by becoming totally absorbed in a mystery or adventure novel. "Escape literature" seems to be a particularly effective way for Introverted Intuitive types to suspend their intense inner focus and vicariously enjoy adventures in the external environment.

    An INTJ reports that at times she feels exeptionally relaxed and able to focus totally on observing her environment. At these times she is able to step away from her usual goal-oriented approach and does nto feel she must immediately do something with her observations. Often doing aerobic exercise precedes and stimulates this relaxed state. An INTJ who is a passionate bird watcher tries to arrange his worldwide consulting work to take advantage of bird-watching opportunities. Other Introverted Intuitive types take up hobbies that require careful attention to details and memory for facts, such as photography, woodworking, furniture refinishing or cooking.

    Introverted Intuitive types mention going for walks or drives and noticing interesting details, such as the shape of houses, the designs on garage doors, the arrangements of trees and flower beds in parks. One INFJ described talking walks by himself and noticing how many different shades of green he could identify on a nature trail, or closing his eyes and trying to identify as many different sounds as he could.

    Using Sensing for relaxation seems to be particularly enjoyable because there is no pressure to acheive any particular goal. "Gardening is an activity I love. I don't worry about performance or doing it perfectly", said an INFJ. "I like pulling weeds, smelling flowers, removing dead flower heads, admiring the colors. All of this nurtures me. Another INFJ enjoys the aesthetic aspects of gardening, the shapes and colors of the flowers, as oppossed to the straightness of the planting rows. And an INTJ's hobby is making flower arrangements. She tries to achieve an overall look with the colors of the flowers, rarely wanting to learn the names of the various blossoms.

    *******************

    The emphasis on free flowing and not competitive or performance driven is completely true for me. Once that happens the Se will not be enjoyable. As an INFJ, I "compete" in life with my Ni and Fe.

    Also, this seems to back up Haphazard's thoughts as far as not meditating so much. It seems like INJs prefer an active, yet not threatening form of active "meditation", as oppossed to the more traditional passive kind. The passive kind lets my Ni take over, and if I want to relax this can be a bad thing. My Ni is very dominant. So relaxation for me often takes the form of a "breather" from my Ni. This requires something stimulating to distract (Se) but not bothersome (stressful Se).

Similar Threads

  1. [JCF] Extraverted Sensing and Introverted Sensing - Se vs Si
    By Domino in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 55
    Last Post: 07-28-2014, 12:36 AM
  2. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 05-29-2013, 10:54 PM
  3. [Se] An INTJ trying to pinpoint and understand Extraverted Sensing
    By fecaleagle in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-26-2011, 10:27 PM
  4. [Se] NF Artists/Athletes and Extraverted Sensing
    By skylights in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 08-04-2010, 03:57 AM
  5. [Se] Understanding and Developing Extraverted Sensing
    By wolfy in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 03-23-2009, 12:38 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO