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  1. #21
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenk View Post
    I tend to go this route because if I don't I go the other route, which I detest. It's supposedly the ESTP shadow in times of stress but if it just continues what does that mean? It's more of a lifestyle.
    If it continues then the INFJ will become very "good" at Se. Characteristically this is a person who spends much of there time in the shadow. Even if it is channeled into pure (religious) or productive (psychotic cleaning binges, psycotic workout binges, psychotic organizing and preparing binges, psychotic finding flaws in other people behavior, etc, etc, etc) activities, the person will still be wallowing in some serious shadow energy and will usually project this onto others. When INFJs are in their shadow and they take the route of "controlling" it, they usually turn into real jerks about whatever area this is. Very very fault finding. If an INFJ is fault finding constantly, even if the faults are possible valid, then that INFJ is in the shadow.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Not if you realise that you need it at that time, I guess...I can cry like a baby knowing that I need to let it out, but I also realise that I'll be back to "normal" the next morning. Or maybe you mean something else.

    Martian, I can see the binge aspect, but not really the Se aspect of it. It's mostly an escape into a non-reality for me.
    Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

    Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

    So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

    So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

    Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!

  3. #23
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Martian, I thought everybody did that?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #24
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Martian, I thought everybody did that?
    Of course, we can all have shadow aspects in any of the functions. What makes it so noticeable in the INJs is the intensity. If it is pleasant then yes, this is typical of INJ. In fact, if you like I can get that section from the book where the rest is from. Perhaps the misunderstanding is that the Se is always negative? It's not, that was just the focus here. INJs are SUPPOSSED to use Se for zoning out. INFJs often like to gaze at nature while taking a nice long walk. This is good. It is a good way to get out of our Ni heads for a while. These three "grip" behaviors are manifestations of the shadow in type when they feel they are losing control. Control of Se is a core fear of INJs, so it is only natural to obsess and want to control it. All types have a way of shutting down. No type is immune and neither is any person. So if these ways aren't the way then there would be others. There is no type who is "okay" with things that bother their inferior functions and all have "go to" coping mechanisms.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Yes, but you are "feeding" that reality. The "ping" that goes from the inner world to the outer world goes both ways. The Introverted Intuition directs the Extraverted Judgement and the Extraverted Judgement feeds the Introverted Intuition.

    Often an INJ will be in a place in their life where the Ni apparatus keeps going to "places' the INJ doesn't want to go. They suck. The visions and images that it gives are on stuff that you have effing had it with. The Ni is sort of like a juke box that way. Most of the time it does it's own thing and plays it's own playlist. It digest stuff brought in (Fe or Te) and uses this to make new "songs" which the INJ takes a ride on. Well when life sucks, your Ni can often take you on rides you don't want to take.

    So there is a little trick you can do, which all INJs learn: You can "load" your Ni apparatus will a high concentration of a type of Se and it will "lead" the Ni apparatus to "work" on that stuff instead. INFJs often use physical Se like binge eating or binge fitness regimes. This overload of a TYPE of Se makes the INFJs apparatus TEMPORARILY play songs that fit that arctypal story INSTEAD OF THE SHIET the Ni wants to go to. And it will go back to it again and again because the Ni is smarter than the persona and it wants to work on it. When INTJs use this strategem, they often overload (an INTJ's actual word) on a type of mental stimulation of a visual, auditory and often fast paced type. This Se overload TRICKS the Ni into working on that instead of what it really wants to work.

    So it may appear like it is a mental exercise or that it is all about feeding the Ni, but it is classic Se grip behavior as expressed by an INTJ. All my INTJ friends do it: NASCAR stuff, WWE wrestling, Hard Rock Guitar Solo artists, breaking news, etc.

    Most of the INTJs I know refer to this as "zoning out". And when they use that term it is almost always with the tone that they have earned such said zoning out time. INTJs get very very angry if you mess with them during zone out time. Zone out time is off limits man!
    Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

    Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    Mwell, you speak of extroverted judgement feeding introverted intuition, but that would be Te rather than Se in the case of an INTJ...confuzzled. It doesn't seem very MBTI logic proof to have one perceiving style feed and determine the workings of another radically different perceiving process.

    Zoning out is what I use to describe Ni going its own course. When I do the binge thing, that's more like numbing the Ni...on that note: is it really feeding the Ni or simply replacing one perceiving process with another? And seeing as what you call zone out time can be pretty positive, can we still speak of abusing Se?
    * Absolutely correct. That is why it is a bad thing to do. Although it has been explained to me that the inferior function acts as a "weight" in some instances to the dominant function. In the case of INJs, the analogy was given to me that Ni is like a balloon that gets bigger and takes you higher the longer you give it "air"(go inside uninterupted). Se is necessarily "heavy" in order to weigh down the opposite function. This can be done in a controlled way by consciously adding Se (nice long walk) onto your Ni so that you are still in touch with reality. It can also be done not so nice, as in Se is being hurled at you and perforating your Ni balloon. This rough way of interacting with the Se causes "turbulence".

    When I read this book, it sounded like the author was describing this turbulence exactly with this "in the grip of the inferior function" theory. I was like A ha, that makes total sense. But I could be like waaaaaaayyyyy effing off If you can explain more please do, I am eager to learn.

    * I can try and get the stuff on how INJs use the inferior function in a positive way. There is some time spent on that, but I remember it wasn't as much as the time spent on the "eruptions of grip behavior". That was the main focus of the book, although other stuff was touched on to give a global perspective

  7. #27
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Quote:
    From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

    Jung (1976a) incorporates the three qualities of inferior Extraverted Sensing (obsessive focus on external data, overindulgence in sensual pleasures, and an adversarial attitude toward the outer world) in the following comment:

    What the introverted intuitive represses most of all is the sensation of the object, and this colours his whole unconscious. It gives rise to a compensatory extraverted sensation function of an archaic character. The unconscious personality can best be described as an extraverted sensation type of a rather low and primitive order. Instinctuality and intemperance are the hallmarks of this sensation, combined with an extraordinary dependence on sense-impressions. This compensates the rarefied air of the intuitive's conscious attitude. (p. 402)


    Quote:
    Obsessive Focus on External Data

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

    An INFJ described her obsessiveness and withdrawal from her usual interests this way: "I stew about what's going on. I can't sit still and am restless. I am mentally fatigued and find myself compulsively putting things in order and trying to control everything around me." An INTJ said that when he is in this state, he feels like a top spinning faster and faster. If he is working with tools and getting frustrated and angry, he has learned that it is best for him to stop or he will get hurt or break something. An INFJ described "obsessing about details." He gave as an example:

    When I'm using power tools that can cause injury, I will spend an inordinate amount of energy making sure that I'm not going to inadvertently hurt myself when I turn the thing on. I will triple-check to make sure my fingers are out of the way, etc. Usually I take in the world more globally and have less concern about details until I need them.

    "I'm more likely to have accidents," said an INTJ. "I'm robotic, forget things, say things backwards;' I'm obsessed with a thought and can't get it out of my mind. I try to control situations and people and engage in strange behavior, like checking on things," said an INTJ woman. And another INTJ woman said, "I can become obsessed by detail. I'm less able to function aqnd make decisions--sort of paralyzed."

    An INFJ said, "I alphabetize my compact discs; or suddenly it's time to do tha thing i thought about doing two months ago. I drop everything and do it; or I fixate on smells and sounds." "I organize or clean. I feel pressured and can't think clearly," reported another INFJ. "I nitpick about things in the environment. i bombard people verbally and obsess out loud."

    An INTJ recalled the following from his childhood and adolescence:

    When my studies were not going too well I would start to develop detailed tables of data, or drawings to support technical/science answers. These were frequently in too great detail, taking a lot of time and usually out of all proportion to the task ad the length of the answers sought--or even irrelevant to the original questions.

    Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

    A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.


    Quote:
    Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

    In effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types, the enjoyment of sensual pleasures is natural, spontaneous, and quite consistent with their focus on the reality of the immediate environment. In Introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, this quality takes the form of sensual excess rather than sensual pleasure. It is interesting that a number of INTJs and INFJs described themselves as becoming "self-centered" and "self-indulgent" when they are in the grip--a descriptor often projected onto well-functioning Extraverted Sensing types by INTJs and INFJs (and by other types as well).

    Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

    An INTJ described the experience this way:

    There is a clear preliminary state where I am totally apart from the real world. I am not even an observer, and I can completely ignore anything real. It's a nice fantasy, that's all--just abosrbing. But later I become excessively indulgent, getting totally immersed in physical experiences--eating, pulp fiction, TV. But I don't enjoy it. It feels like a dangerous roller coaster, but I'm immobilized and can't get off.

    An INFJ said, "I have to get away from reality. I do too much of something--one thing. I eat more or stop eating; I shop for useless things." Another said, "I eat too much, spend too much, watch TV or read excessively to escape. I'm late for everything." An INTJ said her pattern is to overeat, fell guilty about it, wake up in the night and feel worse, get too little sleep, causing her to feel more vulnerable, and then eat more. Another INTJ feels bad about her overeating but not guilty: "I hate it when people brag about how much they exercise!" she said.


    Quote:
    Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

    Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

    An INTJ said, "I start tripping over things and feel out of control in the external world. I feel like I'm under a dark cloud. I get hung up on some false fact and distort it. I get stressed out about time--too many things and not enough time. I attack others with words and then feel guilty." An INFJ described herself as "shutting down, communicating very little. I misplace things, especially keys and watches. I'm very harsh, critical, not diplomatic. I lose my temper, obsess about details, organize, reorganize, yet nothing gets done."

    Anticipating the worst can often elicit anger and blame in INTJs and INFJs. "I'm moody and gloomy, with sudden deep anger," said an INTJ. An INFJ also describes experiencing deep anger: "I am emotionally aroused and am terribly critical of others. I accuse people of never helping me. I become dogmatic and blast people with facts. If no one is around to attack, I write a scathing letter to someone." Another said, "I internally check off all the events that happened leading up to the 'conflict' and then I verbalize this list with a sense that the impeccable logic of it will convince others I am right and I will be vindicated."

    The altered state of any inferior function is typically accompanied by a lessening of social controls and therefore more frequent expressions of anger. However, the character of the anger may be different for different types. For INTJs and INFJs the "cause" of distress is often one or more "objects" in the environment. The anger directed at either things or people may therefore be more focused, intense, and extreme than with other inferior functions. Introverted intuitive types may be unable to recognize alternative possibilities so that their perspective becomes extremely narrow. This tunnel vision and externalization of blame can produce ruthless results.

    One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there." An INFJ observed, "I am angry, unreasonable, totally irrational, closed-minded, and impatient. I feel vulnerable and then become angry at others for it. I can't communicate with anyone. I am hard, callous, unfeeling, and I have not energy to be bothered with anyone else."
    I know this does not help anyone, maybe not directly.

    But this thread gave me a complete new view on the matter at hand.

    Pretty intresting vicious circle there.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #28
    Junior Member unconvinced's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Quote:
    From "Was that Really Me?" by Naomi L Quenk, pp. 198-202

    Quote:
    Obsessive Focus on External Data

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types are open to the widest variety of information from the environment--the more the better for them. Fully experiencing the outside world is their greatest pleasure. For an INTJ or INFJ in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, data from the outside world can seem overwhelming. Facts and details in the world demand the attention of the Introverted Intuitive type in the grip, so he or she obsesses about them. This may be experienced by both INTJs and INFJs as a state of intensity and drivenness. Their attempts to control the details in their environment are often expressed in such activities as feverishly cleaning the house, moving furniture, and organizing records and other materials. They may show an adamant concern about minute details and an unrelenting effort to control everything in their immediate vicinity.

    Often the external input that becomes the object of obsession is something someone said or even failed to say. When the last client on an unusually busy day left without saying her usual "See you next week," an INTJ therapist became convinced she had made a mistake during the psychotherapy session. She spent many hours going over the content of the session. She felt the only reason the client had not terminated theraqpy that day was politeness, so as not to hurt the therapist's feelings.

    A common focus, particularly for INTJ and INFJ women, can be an aspect of their physical appearance. They may become convinced that they have prominent skin blemishes, that others are noticing that they don't dress very well, or that they look fat. In combination with the "overindulgence" manifestation described below, a powerful effect can occur.


    Quote:
    Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

    Overdoing gratification of the senses is a commonly mentioned behavior for INTJs and INFJs in the grip of their inferior function. they may overeat or binge. They see themselves as obsessively doing harm to their bodies. A typical "tactic" is to overindulge compulsively and immediately therafter--if not during the episode--berate themselves for their uncontrolled, shallow, destructive behavior.

    An INTJ described the experience this way:

    Quote:
    Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World

    Effective dominant Extraverted Sensing types approach the outer world with eager anticipation of all the wonderful experiences awaiting them. For introverted Intuitive types in the grip of inferior Extraverted Sensing, the immediate reality of the outer world spells difficulty and danger. They expect obstacles and problems to plague them as they move through a strange and potentially hostile environment.

    Their hypersensitivity to potentially dangerous surroundings can promote uneasiness about people as well. "I can have negative forebodings and feel that people are against me," said an INTJ. An INFJ said she "becomes suspicious. Usually I'm tolerant, curious, and compassionate, so 'out of character' for me means I'm unaccepting and frustrated with the world."

    One INTJ said, "I get into verbal raving and am out of control. I regress emotionally and act childish. I feel anxious, exposed, childlike." Another INTJ said, "If I bump my head on a cupboard, I get mad at the world for putting a cupboard there. Others think I'm cursing at myself--but it's really at the inconsideration or stupidity of the cupboard being there."

    this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.

    is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).
    to accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also dream; not only plan, but also believe--anatole france

  9. #29
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I found myself, too , after reading it, thinking if INTJ and INFJ are the insane membrane of the galaxy

    Maybe a complex personality needs for a complex description
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #30
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unconvinced View Post
    this doesn't sound like personality types, it sounds like a combination of personality disorders--specifically OCD, low self-esteem, and BPD.
    Couldn't agree more.

    is it really healthy to think of these things as part of one's personality, and not as treatable disorders that can and do effect all types of people? many of the thing's i highlighted above can be effectively dealt with by dialectical behavioral and self-esteem therapy (maybe type makes one more disposed to these disorders, but...even so, you don't have to accept that this is how you are if you would rather not be this way).
    It does seem to be saying this is the accepted behaviour of Se or whatever.

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