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  1. #11
    Member sleepless's Avatar
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    Hm... well I can see the "Overindulgence in sensual pleasures" and "Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World", but not really the first one. I didn't think Se tried to control and organize things, as it is described here. Wouldn't that rather be Si? Or some judging function?

  2. #12
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleepless View Post
    Hm... well I can see the "Overindulgence in sensual pleasures" and "Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outer World", but not really the first one. I didn't think Se tried to control and organize things, as it is described here. Wouldn't that rather be Si? Or some judging function?
    Se as an aspiration, but Si as the demon
    therein lies the obsession with recording data and details
    I N V I C T U S

  3. #13
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    1) Obsessive focus on External Data

    To a certain extent, I need to make sure that I have control about the important stuff that's going on in my life and that will influence the future, but I'm not OCD in day-to-day life (cleaning, ordering etc.) at all. I know an INTJ that is, though.

    2) Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

    Can't say that I do this too much.

    3) Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outside World

    Reality can feel threatening and very demanding and exhausting, true.


    Another thing that I have and that might be related to bad Se is that I sense a barier between me as a subject and the outer world as an object that makes direct sensory experience very hard. I might be touching a flower, but not really feel like I am, the experience becomes a reflection in my head.

    INJs don't seem to be very object-oriented.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    1) Obsessive focus on External Data

    To a certain extent, I need to make sure that I have control about the important stuff that's going on in my life and that will influence the future, but I'm not OCD in day-to-day life (cleaning, ordering etc.) at all. I know an INTJ that is, though.

    2) Overindulgence in Sensual Pleasures

    Can't say that I do this too much.

    3) Adversarial Attitude Toward the Outside World

    Reality can feel threatening and very demanding and exhausting, true.


    Another thing that I have and that might be related to bad Se is that I sense a barier between me as a subject and the outer world as an object that makes direct sensory experience very hard. I might be touching a flower, but not really feel like I am, the experience becomes a reflection in my head.

    INJs don't seem to be very object-oriented.
    Yes, I agree about the not being very object-oriented. But I think that actually has to do with obsessing about details and overindulgence in sensual pleasures. Remember, these are NOT typical behaviors of a mature INJ who is in a good place. They are the behaviors of an immature INJ or a mature INJ "in the grip" of the inferior function. So these would be epdisodes of "not working properly".

    I am normally VERY not obsessive about sensual pleasures, but when I feel "stuck" (I am disconnected from my Ni or Fe for some reason) then I do binge eat things to make myself feel better, but it also like me "wallowing" in my current state. This is usually breif until my Ni (alone) or Fe (with peeps) figures a way out. It's during the "I don't see any way out" parts that I feel like this.

    Same thing with details. Details annoy me. When I feel like life is is effing with me, I usually get adversarial towards Se stuff. This comes out in being better than anybody in the immediate area at a given Se thing and then beating them up over it. I think this is my primitive side's way of getting the world to back the eff off. Once I am back in my zone then it is back to the Ni and Fe. If I spend to much time around or under an environement controlled by SJs, this is almost certain to happen at some point. This is one of the many reasons I avoid them.

    Also note that "sensual pleasures" does not have to mean sex, or food or whatever. In fact, the common theme of the "sensual pleasures" is that they are NOT pleasure for the INJ. For example, if I am "in the grip" I will eat snacks because what I really want to do I can't for some reason (not strong enough, would hurt people's feelings I care about, Se is so pervasive that my Ni can't be reached for directions, etc) then I do this as a stress releiver. If this doesn't work after a short while, I will become disgusted with myself for dong this (I'm pretty healthy) so I will usually go to step two of "sensual pleasures" and go to the gym like a psycho to grind the "weakness" or "stupidity" or "anger" out of me, so I can think straight again.

    So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.

  5. #15
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Hmm. I don't really binge eat...

    But I do tend to keep good track of what I eat. I figured out a while ago what happens to me if I don't eat anything substantial for a while (which I'm apt to do), and it's bad shit.

    Then again, because of my living situation, I have little control over my meals, what time they fall, what they are, etc. They don't fit my metabolism very well at all. What ends up happening is that I frequently get hungry, but if I eat, I won't eat at the next meal, which would make things... inconvenient for me. So I've got to force myself to eat enough when food is available so I won't get hungry. What ends up happening is hunger feels like failure, instead of feeling like I need food.

    Sigh. I am a mess.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    Yes, I agree about the not being very object-oriented. But I think that actually has to do with obsessing about details and overindulgence in sensual pleasures. Remember, these are NOT typical behaviors of a mature INJ who is in a good place. They are the behaviors of an immature INJ or a mature INJ "in the grip" of the inferior function. So these would be epdisodes of "not working properly".

    I am normally VERY not obsessive about sensual pleasures, but when I feel "stuck" (I am disconnected from my Ni or Fe for some reason) then I do binge eat things to make myself feel better, but it also like me "wallowing" in my current state. This is usually breif until my Ni (alone) or Fe (with peeps) figures a way out. It's during the "I don't see any way out" parts that I feel like this.

    Same thing with details. Details annoy me. When I feel like life is is effing with me, I usually get adversarial towards Se stuff. This comes out in being better than anybody in the immediate area at a given Se thing and then beating them up over it. I think this is my primitive side's way of getting the world to back the eff off. Once I am back in my zone then it is back to the Ni and Fe. If I spend to much time around or under an environement controlled by SJs, this is almost certain to happen at some point. This is one of the many reasons I avoid them.

    Also note that "sensual pleasures" does not have to mean sex, or food or whatever. In fact, the common theme of the "sensual pleasures" is that they are NOT pleasure for the INJ. For example, if I am "in the grip" I will eat snacks because what I really want to do I can't for some reason (not strong enough, would hurt people's feelings I care about, Se is so pervasive that my Ni can't be reached for directions, etc) then I do this as a stress releiver. If this doesn't work after a short while, I will become disgusted with myself for dong this (I'm pretty healthy) so I will usually go to step two of "sensual pleasures" and go to the gym like a psycho to grind the "weakness" or "stupidity" or "anger" out of me, so I can think straight again.

    So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.
    Hmm, still can't say that I identify with what you described. When I feel stressed out, I retreat to my cave and watch DVDs the entire day - which I would consider a stimulation of Ni (narrative, imagination etc.). I also don't beat myself up about it, it's my way of dealing with stress.

    I have observed the behaviour you mentioned in an INFJ, though.

    "I don't see any way out"
    More of an INFJ thing, I think. Even when feeling stressed out or wallowing, an INTJ will generally realise what they are doing and that things will be better the next day or the solution to their problem lies in their own hands. At least that's how it is for me. Te --> agency.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post

    So when I am "overindulging in sensual pleasures" it might not look like that to an outside observer. In fact, the whole mood is much more of religious pennance...not that I am religious, but that would be closer to what is going on. I think that the author mentions that in the expanded post I listed. THAT definition of totally fits me. I hate those times. They suck buttocks.
    I tend to go this route because if I don't I go the other route, which I detest. It's supposedly the ESTP shadow in times of stress but if it just continues what does that mean? It's more of a lifestyle.

  8. #18
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uytuun View Post
    More of an INFJ thing, I think. Even when feeling stressed out or wallowing, an INTJ will generally realise what they are doing and that things will be better the next day or the solution to their problem lies in their own hands. At least that's how it is for me. Te --> agency.
    That seems true... although it also seems like it'd make the INTJ feel guiltier.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #19
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Uytuun;310949]When I feel stressed out, I retreat to my cave and watch DVDs the entire day - which I would consider a stimulation of Ni (narrative, imagination etc.). I also don't beat myself up about it, it's my way of dealing with stress. QUOTE]

    I rest my case I think many a shrink would call the DVDs all day a classic example of binge Se. The fact that you don't beat yourself up about it means you are evolved. However, most of the INTJs I know (a fair amount) do EXACTLY the same thing. My good friend who edits my writing for me is an INTJ. He watches WWE wrestling all day. He also says it's his method of stress and how he doesn't beat himself up about it. He says this after telling me all the reasons his life has caused him to retreat into said cave to watch said marathon of senseless mayhem. He keeps it bottled up until he can talk to somebody who actually would even get it. That is the service I happily provide as his INFJ buddy

  10. #20
    Senior Member Uytuun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    That seems true... although it also seems like it'd make the INTJ feel guiltier.
    Not if you realise that you need it at that time, I guess...I can cry like a baby knowing that I need to let it out, but I also realise that I'll be back to "normal" the next morning. Or maybe you mean something else.

    Martian, I can see the binge aspect, but not really the Se aspect of it. It's mostly an escape into a non-reality for me.

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