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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post
    The following are excerpts from a book I am reading.
    That book would be Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Lenore Thomson for the uninitiated. It's a good book for all of those who can decipher it.

    Also, I declare myself the first confirmed P to post in this thread.
    Would you kindly read my signature?

  2. #12
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    it fits me like a birthday suit
    I N V I C T U S

  3. #13
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    Wow, I so get this. Thanks again for posting it.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
    ~~~~
    A Christian's life may be the only Bible some people ever read.
    ~~~~
    "The first time someone shows you who they are, believe them" Maya Angelou.
    ~~~~
    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ" Gandhi
    ~~~~

  4. #14
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAboutSoul View Post
    Wow, I so get this. Thanks again for posting it.
    My pleasure. If you liked that, here is some more just on the INFJ:

    "Because INFJs use Se to relate to the outer would, they may seem more outgoing than they really are. Their personal approach and ability to find common ground with others combines with their intuitive need for innovation and alternative views, and they frequently find themselves in positions of authority. They may not seek leadership, but they are often elected by others to serve on boards and committees. People apprieciate their ability to listen and to consider group feelings and values.

    "Thus, it should be recongnized that INFJs and more like INTJs than they initially appear. Their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they are receptive to others only up to a point. Indeed, these types often find that their sympathy and perceptive listening have been mistaken for an overture of friendship, which they didn't intend."

    "Unlike INTJs however, their sense of the unexpressed is not impersonal an causal; it is intensely personal and oriented by emotional awareness. Their intuition takes them into psychological areas that other types are likely to keep at bay. Because they don't usually know right away the import of what they're intuiting, they may "go along" with a questionable situation until they can get a hold of how they actually feel about it. This tendency can be confusing to others, and it is often misinterpreted as reckless experimentation."

    "Like INTJs, INFJs have a penchant for abstraction and symbolic representation. If interested, they excel in the fields of science, math and medicine. However, they are not generally motivated by sheer intellectual challenge. INFJs require a sense of meaning in the work they do. They are more likely than INTJs to personalize their skills - as teachers, psychologists, consultants, ministers and family doctors. They are particularly sensitive to others' feelings of exclusion, and they may address or try to rectify inequities of status or opportunity within the context of their profession."

    "Such types can be quite tenacious in pointing out the discrepancies between stated beliefs and actual behavior. This is the arena in which their intuition is most evident. INFJs wrestle all their lives with the conflict they perceive maintaing harmonious relationships and expresssing emotional truth, and it is a central issue in the books, novels, plays, and psychological articles that INFJs write. Their 1 percent representation in the population belies the trememendous influence these types have in shaping cultural ideas about identity and being true to oneself."

    "INFJs are exquisitly sensitive to nuance and suggestion - all the ways we unwittingly express how we feel, who we are, what we believe about ourselves and others. They are not interested in the precision of language, as INTJs are, but in its rich possibilities for metaphor and multiple layers of meaning. They often have a gift for verbal imagery or poetic expression, and they are sometimes capable of raising to consciousness something that others can only dimly sense."

    "INFJs frequently express themselves indirectly, depending on unstated implications to carry their meaning, and they can be put off by too direct a reference to somethign that is of great value to them."

    "Because INFJs are so alert to the unsaid, they may find it difficult to sort out their own emotions from the mood and feelings they discern in others. Young INFJs, in particular, are sometimes labeled hypersentive or melodramatic, because their self-experience is tied to others emotional bounderies."

    "Optimally, they bring their emotional insights into the communitty as art, or they use them to help others come to terms with conflict in their own lives. INFJs are also capable of turning their inner experience into trenchant social commentary - by finding their truest voice and using it, perhaps in the ministry, or in the kind of edgy comedy of a Richard Pryor (I think also perhaps Dave Chapelle anyone?). Types who do this can become a potent focal point for others' unexpressed fears and yearnings. However, the pressure of speaking one's own truth in a public forum is ultimately taxing for most INFJs."

    "The INFJs sense of physical well-being is very much allied with their relationships and emotional investments. They want very much to be liked, buy they're afraid of being hurt, and they often develop a sense of humor that helps them to maintain a wide range of friendly contacts. Such types are by turns highly sociable and maddeningly inaccessible."

    "INFJs have to find some way to sort out their feelings from the feelings of others - in not in writing or art, then in an expression of religious faith, or the effort to help others to express themselves."

    "Like INTJs, INFJs have a tendency to use their secondary function for protection - for example, to distance themselves froma relationship that demands too much of them emotionally. They are entirely capable of meeting the expected surface demands of a situation, all the while nursing secret criticisms of a partner or a friend."

    "In general, these types do create their own reality, and it is one of great riches - a storehouse that artists, poets and writers draw from for their material. However, if their inner life is not balanced with reality, they may feel so different from others that they become self-conscious and defensive. They may be drawn to dysfunctional peole, romanticizing their ability to see something in them that others cannot see."

    "INFJs are a bit like Merlin, summoned by the voice of Nimue deep with the enchanted forest. The song they hear is calling them elsewhere, beyond the cultivated borders of common consensus. When they are able to use ther Extroverted Feeling function well, they bring that song back into the public domain, find a way to integrate it into the fabric of the communitty. INFJs who don't do this can get trapped, like the great wizard of Camelot, in a kind of enchantment that robs them of their very geniune powers of discernment and insight."

    P.S.: If any INTJs are interested I got some stuff for you too if you like.

  5. #15
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    INTJs always want to absorb more data about themselves to analyze.

    Please continue.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  6. #16
    Senior Member Lexlike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    INTJs always want to absorb more data about themselves to analyze.

    Please continue.
    and InTps do not ?? If so, i m quite the same!
    I...74%
    N...66%
    F... 62%
    P... 72%
    Ti- Ne- Si- Fe
    Te- Ni-Fi- Se
    Ennegramm: 4w5
    Intrapersonal with Logical- Mathemathical I.
    Cassification: brunette East- baltid^^

  7. #17
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Introverted Intuition and INTJs

    "Because INTJs rely on Extraverted Thinking for their dealing with the outer world, they often have a scientific, somewhate skeptical approach to reality. They want to know how things work and what they're likely to do under varying circumstances. Impatient with wasted motions, words and emotions, their outward demeanor may be difficult to read." Indeed, an INTJs bearing can seem downright Vulcan."

    "Although they superficially resemble Extraverted Thinkers, INTJs are always guided by their intuitions. They are rarely committed to general assumptions about rules, and hierarchy, and they may have an acerbic or wry sense of humor about such things. INTJs will use what works in the service of their ideas; and they will quickly discard or change what doesn't"

    "[INTJs fundamentally attitude is] that fundamental truth is something different from expressed knowledge, which is always a fiction of one sort or another. If a theory works, it doesn't matter who supports it or what anyone thinks it means. If it doesn't, why bother with it?"

    "ENTJs will not usually pursue a goal unless it strikes them as compatible with reason. INTJs are more classically Promethean. They will steal fire from the gods without any assurance that a reasonable hearth exists at which to tend it back home. For such types, knowledge is not information, but a way of looking at things."

    "[Antidefintion is typical of an INTJ]. Such types may expend a great deal of time attempting to winnow the actual logic of accepted theories and formulations from expedient or merely limited assumptions. INTJs are accordingly drawn to science, mathematics and medicine - fields in which new ideas about reality are constantly being forged and tested logically. They may also take an interest in psychology, theology, publishing and linguistics. As they pursue their intuitons, they inevitably combine elements from varied fields, perceiving an underlying commonality of form or meaning."

    "This sense of underlying structure and meaning leads INTJs to value both elegance of form and subtely of expression. Nothing exists that can't bear reediting and paring down to its essential components. The connections INTJs perceive among very different areas of knowledge may be sufficient to convince them they're heading in the right direction, even when they can't explain what they're after."

    "INTJs explore information largely by rejecting its influence - examing it from other perspectives and determining its limitations. Because this inner process is tied to their sense of self, INTJs can take a long time to figure out "who they really are". Their need to find "what's missing" from a system of information invariably takes them into their own mental world - to an imaginative reconstruction of ideas - and the effort necessarily becomes a search for part of themselves. Such types can develop the desctructive habit of formulating their identity in terms of their ability to see a situation's limits, needing to find flaws that will allow them to become spectators rather than performers."

    "INTJs are invariably described as indepedent and self-motivated, and this certainly true with respect to their strongest functions. Where technical and intellectual competence are concerned, INTJs have a kind of inner compass, and they prefer a situation in which they don't have to coordinate their work with or report to someone else. Moreover, they don't take criticism of their ideas personally. Position, title, and reputation have no meaning for these types. They will not entertain anther's judgement of their worth unless they believe the person intellectually qualified to make the assessment. And even a legitimate judgement will usually strike them as an indication of the other person's assumptions and expectations."

    "Personal relatedness,however is a different matter, INTJs are much less confident in a purely social situation. It is no exaggeration to say that their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they will nurture that relationship at the considerable expense of social abilities and the art of compromise."

    "In a field that excites or interests them, they are often driven and they tend to expect the same degree of investment from subordinates. They frequently convey impatience when a situation that had seemed impersonal and outwardly predictable suddenly requires free-form personal interaction."

    "INTJs don't like to say something more than once, and they may cut others short when conversation strikes them as unnecessary. Moreover, their need to find an alternative point of view in order to understand something can sound like disagreement or negativity - as though the speaker's ideas had been judged and found wanting. Thus, even people who know an INTJ well may believe the person is either indifferent to them or critical of them."

    "INTJs can also be lonely behind their reserve, not knowing how to fit in even when they want to be included. This aspect of the type is partly the result of the INTJ's comparative rarity. At 1 percent of the population, INTJs are usually the only one of their kind in a family. Throughout grammar and high school, they are often the only such type in a classroom. Although this ratio changes at college and graduate level, when INTJs specialize in fields that appeal to other INJs, for most of their developing years, these types have good reason to feel different from others. Because they relate to the outer world with Extraverted Thinking, they generally interact by trying to determine the logical relationship of others' views and demands to their own needs. Consequently, they get little experience in areas of relationship that don't interest them."

    "Many such types become articulate quite early, and they use their verbal abilities to fend off involvement in anything they don't understand or don't wish to do. However, their awareness of others' feelings does not keep pace with their verbal abilities. Young INTJs may be intellectually precocious but emotionally immature, exercising their dominant functions by distancing themselves from others, engaging in ironic comments and somewhat juvenile sarcasm. Sometimes, to their surprise, their observations make people laugh and afford them the group approval they were attempting to preemt. INTJs rather enjoy the paradox this sets up and will play to it - experimenting with the bounderies of humor itself. One might consider comedian Dennis Miller, who presents himself as a caustic observer and occasional saboteur of the images and conventions on which his livelihood depends."

    "IN general, these types deal with feelings the way they deal with ideas - by formulating and explaining them to themselves so they know what to expect, or getting far enough outside them to resist their influence. In an INTJ's mind, friendships require a particular kind of investment; sexual connections another; marriage another. Such types want to know which category they're dealing with before they get involved. But real relationship is unpredictable, and real people resist the categories the INTJ attempts to apply. In fact, sexual attraction and romantic infatuation usually catch these types by surprise. And although they enjoy the distinct pleasures of sensuality, the careening roller coaster of emotions that comes with the territory ultimately forces them to use their inferior functions."

    "As opposed to their usual view of reality as arbitrary, they begin to experience the influence of primitive Extraverted Sensation and feel an anxious sense of material possession. They feel impulsive, out of control, and unable to take anything for granted. They worry that their intellectual life will never get back on track until the relationship becomes more ordinary and settled. Ultimately, they attempt to regain control - by pressing for declarations and permanency, even if their own intentions aren't clear to them yet, or by using their critical judgements to distance themselves from their emotion."

    "INTJs appreciate the security of a committed relationship, and given the ratio of Extraverts to Introverts in our culture, often marry Extraverted types. They enjoy their families and maintain an unusual respect for the individuality and independence of both spouse and children. However, they may not sustain the kind of Extraverted interaction their partner expects. They're more likely to settle in and, at their first opportunity, reassert their primary relationship to their inner world. This is true of both male and female INTJs. When there is too much outer stimulation or conflict, INTJs lose touch with their intuitive process and become restless, bored, and emotionally exhausted. Thus, INTJs need a fair amount of time alone."

    "They also need a fair amount of intellectual challenge and exercise. If a partner can't provide it, INTJs are likely to seek it privately or with others. The same INTJ who gets bored at parties and looks around for the nearest bookshelf may well forget to eat or sleep when involved in a complex and intricate conversation about ideas. In fact, for an INTJ, the communication of like minds is a kind of cerebral analog to falling in love."

    "Ironically, INTJs can best engage their Feeling and Sensate qualities by developing more Extraverted Thinking. The inner world of an INTJ is so compelling that such types can let their physical and emotional needs go for long periods of time. Deliberate use of Extraverted Thinking gives them more of what they need - a sense of rootedness in the material world: the world of bills, train schedules, medical and dental appointments, shoe repair and the like."

    "Extraverted Thinking also connects them to the assumptions and expectations of others, so they are better able to analyze people's expressions and behaviors for social cues. Many INTJs find, for example, that their career ambitions push them into developing a serviceable repetoire of behaviors that convey goodwill and put people at ease. Ultimately, these behaviors are more predictable than the abstract categories of relationship INTJs are inclined to devise."

    "When Extraverted Thinking isn't working well enough, INTJs draw directly from their tertiary function, Introverted Feeling, which merely rationalizes and supports their worst tendencies. It encourages them to idealize their abstract ideas about life and to avoid real relationships as unworthy of their investment. Such INTJs are often credited with staying above the emotional fray of life, when they have actually never been in it."

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martian Manifesto View Post

    "INFJs are a bit like Merlin, summoned by the voice of Nimue deep with the enchanted forest. The song they hear is calling them elsewhere, beyond the cultivated borders of common consensus. When they are able to use ther Extroverted Feeling function well, they bring that song back into the public domain, find a way to integrate it into the fabric of the communitty. INFJs who don't do this can get trapped, like the great wizard of Camelot, in a kind of enchantment that robs them of their very geniune powers of discernment and insight."

    I wonder how specifically an INFJ would develop Fe so it's used well?

  9. #19
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    INTJs always want to absorb more data about themselves to analyze.

    Please continue.
    There you are. Enjoy.

  10. #20
    Senior Member Martian Manifesto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karenk View Post
    I wonder how specifically an INFJ would develop Fe so it's used well?
    As I understand it you need to constantly "ping" (like submarines do) between your Ni and you Fe. Fe is used poorly when it thinks it is it's own boss and doesn't listen to the signal from the Ni. Or the signal is lost temporarily for some reason (life happens) and the Fe doesn't have "faith", for lack of a better word, that the Ni signal is going to come back. Then the Fe freaks out and that's not going to help using it well.

    Also the Fe could be poorly developed because when the Ni sent a signal (early in life) to the Fe and the Fe brought it out to the peeps, the peeps didn't respond too well. This makes the INFJ think that the reason you use Fe is to KEEP PEOPLE FROM KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE REALLY THINKING instead of INTERFACE WITH THE PEEPS TO GET YOUR Ni all the way out to the Se. The Fe is suppossed to do this.

    If it doesn't then it instead becomes the "guardian" or "frontman" to keep you Ni apparatus "clean" and to keep your Ni signal without "static". But this makes an INFJ eventually very very "lonely", not in the traditional sense, about this gap. This gap is probably why INFJs were born. To see the Ni and then send it out to the world Fe (and when you are rocking: Se).

    The tricky part is when you first bring Ni stuff out. It will be a) very raw so most people won't get it...you need many drafts of your Ni before showing it to the outside (Fe & Se) and b) an INFJ is going to be exquisitly, to quote the author, sensitive to criticism. IF the INFJ is hurt enough to run back inside then this sets up poor Fe development. Easy cure: find NFPs to talk it out with first. INFPs are the most understanding people I have ever met. ENFPs will actuall SEE what you are talking about. INTJs and ENTPs will also but the T can be a little rough on the first few "drafts" of an Ni idea you want to bring out for show and tell.

    All an INFJ needs is a small group of supportive and understanding types to "ping" their Ni-Fe signal back and forth until they find their "voice". Then the INFJ can test this "voice" out in various environments. The INFJ will often instinctually know that this is just "testing" and these experiments with your lightsaber/voice don't relfect on your ego. You are just trying to feel out your mojo. This would probably be the times INFJs are mistaken for reckless experimenters according to the author. Eventually the INFJ will get it's "sea legs" so to speak and then it's just practice, practice, practice. An INFJ's strenght flows from it's voice

    Once that happens it's pretty much time to start taking over the world

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