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  1. #81
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    If everyone disagreed with your choice, would you change your choice?


    (And why not? What's the objective part of the choice in the first place, and how does it withstand other people disagreeing?)
    Oh I thought you were posing those questions hypothetically... because there's only one obvious way to answer it.

    Depends on the nature and impact on the choice. If there's no untoward consequences to going along with the group decision, the INFJ will follow without a doubt.

    And once the truth is apprehended, suitable/good/valuable feeling can be sought out and promoted.

    This is a little different from seeking approval, observing however as we should that approval is quite likely to follow from instantiation of suitable/good/valuable feeling in the other person.


    And while these claims are hopelessly apriori for yonder Ti types, do they nonetheless ring any bells?
    Feelings for me has very little to do with truths. Emotional response and objective search of truth for me are parallel processes. Usually subjective values hits me faster than Ti analytical processing. I get an initial emotional judgment, then I pull back for analysis, and I alter my response based on the analysis. From the way you've described it, your approach seems to be completely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    i don't see anywhere that Fe craves approval. but i do get a nuance of what you are saying, i believe. it does feel good to me when someone else thinks i'm nice, but it isn't a driving force or motivator for me, it's just a warm fuzzy kind of thing, for me.
    As to approval seeking behaviour. Perhaps I didn't explain it properly. Fe ingrained values are based on past learning of what's socially accepted as being correct. Obviously many things in life are in shades of gray, how do we learn to distinguish between the fine shades? By observation of reactions/approval from others. We don't consciously depend on their approval, but nonetheless their approval shape who they are.



    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    so perhaps, Fe provides us infj with unlimited fodder to feed our rapacious Ni which cunningly culls colossal amounts of data to make conclusions which tickle Truth's fancy?
    If you go by traditional jungian theories... things should be perceived prior to judgment. Therefore Fe usually doesn't feed directly into Ni. The culling process is certainly found in abundance though. Otherwise Ni wouldn't be able to focus down on anything at all.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  2. #82
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    *chuckles* I meet no disrespect when I say this.

    Examine your motives a little closer...

    If there is NOBODY around to see how you act? Will you still be nice?

    Yes. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that there's no observer. You cannot bear to be inconsistent. Reputation can be broken by a single act. That is the reason.

    The sense of self for most INFJ is quite externally derived. It's a fault I noticed in myself time and time again. A lot what we defined as desirable behaviour is based on the general's opinion. Fe caves in to please others because their opinions is a part of our self worth...
    healthy infjs use the tools they have gathered from extraverted feeling to judge themselves from the perspective of the Other. outside of themselves. that's what they do, turn extraverted judging technology inward on themselves. it creates more realistic expectations and an understanding of what it is like to be critical self-critical and critiqued. we use it to check/balance our introverted intuition, not the other way around. we use it to balance our own inner perceiving landscape and to impose limits on ourselves that will focus us on what is present, actual, and at-hand. otherwise we'd spend forever and a day placing and positing without the resistance necessary to push us out of our perceptual ruts and out onto new tracks.

    the sense of self is a balance between the way that Fe creates tension (read: a stable platform, a foundation) with Ni dom. we use judgments outside of ourselves to do this, but we repackage and re-assemble and re-arrange them, we synthesize shit in very complex and humane and understanding ways. we are sensitive to otherness (too much so!). we reconstruct interiors based on the contextual clues and the articulated expressions (surfaces) elsewhere. we have a number of microscopes to get into the dark and dingy corners. we are great at reading into things. a little too great, sometimes, which is why we need to rely on external structure to orient, direct, and guide us. we use very small minute clues and bounce around like we're trapped in a fiber optic wire, listening to the ground like a native american tracker, rather than looking off into the distance.

    as far as actual motivations those differ with ennegram type. i'm a 5w4 so i want to master, achieve perfect omniscient competency, integration leads to 8. my wing is individualistic, wants to be loved, recognized for its own uniqueness (narrative!), control and dramatize and heighten events to express my sense of self. others are different balances. and when stressed 5s are greedy and miserly with time, resources, attention, love, etc. 4s become melodramatic and self-absorbed and needy when weak. these are all defense systems aimed at protecting our-selves and coping with the holes in our own sense of integration/self/self-image. sweep shit under the rug. we obviously do it in ways relevant to our processing techniques (cognitive functions), but there are more expressions and a diversity of motivations underneath mb type.

    purity is a silly concept which no type can claim. everyone peels bananas and has come on down like the price is right from the trees to just guess, guess, and guess some more (at what is right).

    edit to add: Fe to me is based on using extraverted judgments present and pre-packaged to gather information to understand our sense of self, feel our values and our own like outline/silhouette lit up in the way that we resist the world outside of us. rain falling on us and revealing our true shape. we get a sense of ourselves by discovering the way we respond emotionally, the way we prioritize and react and articulate/express our own sense of right and wrong. by using this values we gain a sense of who we are, we see ourselves acting in the world as a real and visible (NOT INVISIBLE!) object. we act (like a character) ourselves into real existence, bc this is not where we are truly from nor where we truly belong, which is Ni dom inner perceiving virtual space landscape of the imagination etc.

  3. #83
    Senior Member Silent Stars's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Ayrab View Post
    This is a serious thread.

    I know a few ENFJ's and maybe one or two INFJ's and these people are seriously too nice to be true. They really do go out of their way to make sure everyone is happy. Are they really as nice inside as they are outside? This is a serious inquiry. Also, what is your reasoning from a practical or theoretical perspective?

    And to all the xNFJ's don't be shy, whats your perspective.
    I know that, at least for myself, it is absolutely true. A lot of people I come across have a hard time believing and accepting that, but I just be patient with them.

    It's kinda funny, though...a lot of people end up calling me 'Jesus' or some such thing. lol
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  4. #84
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Feelings for me has very little to do with truths. Emotional response and objective search of truth for me are parallel processes. Usually subjective values hits me faster than Ti analytical processing. I get an initial emotional judgment, then I pull back for analysis, and I alter my response based on the analysis. From the way you've described it, your approach seems to be completely different.
    I was--kinda, sorta--trying for something like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    edit to add: Fe to me is based on using extraverted judgments present and pre-packaged to gather information to understand our sense of self, feel our values and our own like outline/silhouette lit up in the way that we resist the world outside of us. rain falling on us and revealing our true shape. we get a sense of ourselves by discovering the way we respond emotionally, the way we prioritize and react and articulate/express our own sense of right and wrong. by using this values we gain a sense of who we are, we see ourselves acting in the world as a real and visible (NOT INVISIBLE!) object. we act (like a character) ourselves into real existence, bc this is not where we are truly from nor where we truly belong, which is Ni dom inner perceiving virtual space landscape of the imagination etc.
    My version was trying to see it as INTJ-analogue: discounting the giant black hole that is Ni, if INTJs are what they do in the outside world (via Te decision), then INFJs are what they make feel in the outside world (via Fe decision). And vice versa.

    Maybe.


    But I was also adding in the element people seem to be forgetting... that Ni is innovative, making the (a priori) connections that other people don't always see, thus building awareness of the system, and thus providing us with our Chart The Course abilities, being able to tell people what to do.

    An aside: I recently discovered that I don't do all that much thinking. Like duh, but it's Ni that provides the insight, and thinking that backtracks and justifies for other people. (And for me too, but mostly, perhaps, so that I can put it out there in useable ways... I think... maybe....)

    The comparable Fe role is... um....



    Something. I dunno. But see, Te is evaluative, as is Fe, and evaluations are evaluations... Thinking evaluations are not automatically objective just because they use the words "true" and "false", no more so than Fe is objective just for using the words "good" and "bad". Nonetheless, both intend objectivity... don't they? And are able to reach it--somehow--right? No Fe user is really saying, oh, go ahead, don't worry about this feeling or that, it's all subjective anyway!

    Or am I over-reaching in trying to draw this comparison?


    Anyway, blah blah blah and back onto topic, sure, Fe seeks approval... or to use a better phrase... "legitimately positive outcomes between people that blow back nicely onto me."

    Which sounds like ass if one keeps trying to say evaluations words like "good" and "nice" and "approved" never, ever represent something objectively valuable.


    Or something.

    I'm losing it.

  5. #85
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I was--kinda, sorta--trying for something like this:



    My version was trying to see it as INTJ-analogue: discounting the giant black hole that is Ni, if INTJs are what they do in the outside world (via Te decision), then INFJs are what they make feel in the outside world (via Fe decision). And vice versa.

    Maybe.


    But I was also adding in the element people seem to be forgetting... that Ni is innovative, making the (a priori) connections that other people don't always see, thus building awareness of the system, and thus providing us with our Chart The Course abilities, being able to tell people what to do.

    An aside: I recently discovered that I don't do all that much thinking. Like duh, but it's Ni that provides the insight, and thinking that backtracks and justifies for other people. (And for me too, but mostly, perhaps, so that I can put it out there in useable ways... I think... maybe....)

    The comparable Fe role is... um....



    Something. I dunno. But see, Te is evaluative, as is Fe, and evaluations are evaluations... Thinking evaluations are not automatically objective just because they use the words "true" and "false", no more so than Fe is objective just for using the words "good" and "bad". Nonetheless, both intend objectivity... don't they? And are able to reach it--somehow--right? No Fe user is really saying, oh, go ahead, don't worry about this feeling or that, it's all subjective anyway!

    Or am I over-reaching in trying to draw this comparison?


    Anyway, blah blah blah and back onto topic, sure, Fe seeks approval... or to use a better phrase... "legitimately positive outcomes between people that blow back nicely onto me."

    Which sounds like ass if one keeps trying to say evaluations words like "good" and "nice" and "approved" never, ever represent something objectively valuable.


    Or something.

    I'm losing it.
    A concept that I can't well explain. Something of value is rarely "objective", unless you mean from an objective stand point, it's useful to have values. I throw the terms "good" "nice" etc about quite loosely and I do apologize for not defining what I meant. Good, nice, acceptable... they're all just a stand-in for acts that are socially regarded as being important to cultivate. There is no definition for good or evil, unless there's a group consensus. Since every individuals opinion varies slightly. All Fe takes from it is the "average" opinion based on everything Ni perceived subjectively and evaluate base on that guideline.

    It might not be true for other types... But as an Ni dominant, true objectivity is impossible. Under that assumption, Fe has no problems making subjective decisions so long as the decision is based on a balanced set of view points. Here is where the Ti analysis comes in to cross check.

    Which makes the decision process of INTJs a bit of a puzzlement. How can you be objective if you recognize true objectivity is not possible? What is "truth"? Or does it not matter and you're simply making do with the closest approximation of truth?
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  6. #86
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Hmmm...a lot of these comments apply to ENFJ. ENFJ and INFJ are very different, it's not a simple change of E vs. I.
    While I can agree the vibe of Fe/Ni and Ni/Fe is distinct, my INFJ father and I share a great many things in common, including instinctive response, temper and temperament, creative prompt, and problem-solving. I frequently get "You're acting like your Dad" from various members of the family. I feel that he and I communicate on a special level of understanding. I am not INFJ, nor is he ENFJ, but we do strike similar chords. I'm treated like I'm my dad's personality on steroids. Sometimes I think my father sees in my actions some of his ENTJ brother too - mostly, I think, the guillotine decision-making ability and my capacity to live closer to the surface than he feels comfortable.


    Again, applies to ENFJ, mostly. I would never usurp the rights of an individual for the greater good. The idea is alien to me.
    What?? I wouldn't do that either! O.o WTH does that even mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by MetalWounds View Post
    NFJs can draw out sides of your personality that you never knew were there. You can't really do anything about it either, it's gonna happen. I think that's why NFJs get a lot of hate from people...it's a loss of personal control. Before you try to get close to one, you had best truly know yourself.
    The silo is decorated in Barbie pink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    An xNFJ ate my entire family. Thereís nothing nice or caring about them
    RAWR!!!! *squirts you with mustard and nibbles you to death* GO TO YOUR FAMBLY, TRINITY!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    Very good point.
    They should be burned at the stake.



    Or something like that.
    Steak?
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  7. #87
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    healthy infjs use the tools they have gathered from extraverted feeling to judge themselves from the perspective of the Other. outside of themselves. that's what they do, turn extraverted judging technology inward on themselves. it creates more realistic expectations and an understanding of what it is like to be critical self-critical and critiqued. we use it to check/balance our introverted intuition, not the other way around. we use it to balance our own inner perceiving landscape and to impose limits on ourselves that will focus us on what is present, actual, and at-hand. otherwise we'd spend forever and a day placing and positing without the resistance necessary to push us out of our perceptual ruts and out onto new tracks.

    the sense of self is a balance between the way that Fe creates tension (read: a stable platform, a foundation) with Ni dom. we use judgments outside of ourselves to do this, but we repackage and re-assemble and re-arrange them, we synthesize shit in very complex and humane and understanding ways. we are sensitive to otherness (too much so!). we reconstruct interiors based on the contextual clues and the articulated expressions (surfaces) elsewhere. we have a number of microscopes to get into the dark and dingy corners. we are great at reading into things. a little too great, sometimes, which is why we need to rely on external structure to orient, direct, and guide us. we use very small minute clues and bounce around like we're trapped in a fiber optic wire, listening to the ground like a native american tracker, rather than looking off into the distance.
    that's what i was getting at with this, i think, if i understand you correctly, which i might not.

    Quote Originally Posted by aphrodite-gone-awry View Post
    so perhaps, Fe provides us infj with unlimited fodder to feed our rapacious Ni which cunningly culls colossal amounts of data to make conclusions which tickle Truth's fancy?


    edit to add: Fe to me is based on using extraverted judgments present and pre-packaged to gather information to understand our sense of self, feel our values and our own like outline/silhouette lit up in the way that we resist the world outside of us. rain falling on us and revealing our true shape. we get a sense of ourselves by discovering the way we respond emotionally, the way we prioritize and react and articulate/express our own sense of right and wrong. by using this values we gain a sense of who we are, we see ourselves acting in the world as a real and visible (NOT INVISIBLE!) object. we act (like a character) ourselves into real existence, bc this is not where we are truly from nor where we truly belong, which is Ni dom inner perceiving virtual space landscape of the imagination etc.
    meh, this sounds more Fi to me.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  8. #88
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    I'm not nearly as nice as I appear. I do have a tendency to see the good in everyone, and I forgive people incredibly easily. I don't hate anyone. I'd do a favor for someone who I don't like. I'm polite all the time.

    But under the surface, I think I have a lot of resentment (being so nice is TAXING). I think I'm disappointed by other people because they don't try as hard as I do to be accommodating. Although sometimes I get mad at people for being too accommodating, especially if I think they are going to resent doing the thing that they're offering so freely.

    A lot of the time, I'll be in an "I hate everybody" mood (I'm still just as nice, though...) It's just that, well, I feel it's inappropriate to complain or to even get very emotional in front of others. So I hold most of my emotions back, defaulting to politeness.

  9. #89
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    I'm not nearly as nice as I appear. I do have a tendency to see the good in everyone, and I forgive people incredibly easily. I don't hate anyone. I'd do a favor for someone who I don't like. I'm polite all the time.

    But under the surface, I think I have a lot of resentment (being so nice is TAXING). I think I'm disappointed by other people because they don't try as hard as I do to be accommodating. Although sometimes I get mad at people for being too accommodating, especially if I think they are going to resent doing the thing that they're offering so freely.

    A lot of the time, I'll be in an "I hate everybody" mood (I'm still just as nice, though...) It's just that, well, I feel it's inappropriate to complain or to even get very emotional in front of others. So I hold most of my emotions back, defaulting to politeness.
    i definitely have had my moments in this. many times. i feel like overall people just can't hold up their end of things as good as i usually can, and sometimes when i'm stressed it really gets to me. like not being there for me when i (rarely) need something. not being accomodating, not returning emails, not........ yada, yada, yada. and it can get me pretty pissy. this also affects me more when i'm feeling sociable. when i'm more introverted and in my own world, it doesn't affect me too much, simply because i don't need/want people around as much.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #90
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    I get " I hate everybody/everything" when I'm exhausted on many levels or have been abused. It's a sweeping condemnation that kicks the knee-jerk caring to the curb. Even in a hideously foul mood, I don't go out and unleash it on people who had nothing to do with it, like waiters or cashiers or teachers etc. Granted, I can be extremely hard to live with (family and friends) when I'm bloody-minded even if I'm not taking it out on anyone consciously. That's why I get away and walk, or contain myself for a time alone. I'm not "nice" either, I've been told as much, and I know it to be correct. I may not be nice, but I'm deeply concerned for others and have an instinctive need to correct/fight inequalities (all the while stuffing my internal General down when he rattles his saber).
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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