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  1. #61
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Oh, they do care, but they also care selfishly. A lot of what they do is just so they can go on believing that they are great people underneath their idealist criteria.
    Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing. Except to admit we're selfishly nice is unacceptable. So we cover everything up by acting "unselfishly" nice. Self-giving taken to the extreme.

    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    cuz I know you'd take all of that away from me in 0.05 seconds :P NFJs can be as quick to scorn as they are to love!
    Despite what any INFJ might say, there's only so much you can give. Any person we can justifiably cut off from the list we tend to do so. And once you're off the list, forget about getting back in it.

    I want to find an INFJ whose love isn't contingent on anything. that'll impress me.
    Love from anybody is always contingent on something. If you dig deep down, there's always a gain. However love to INFJ is about as "pure" as you can get. What's gain is well being from the relationship and caring for your partner. It's not contingent directly on the person at all... nor is it on the INFJ.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  2. #62
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Let me clarify the contingent upon anything part, because obviously love can't be random or compeltely non-dependant on something. I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification. Love that isn't justifiable in the NFJ's perfect system, but doesn't have to be

    THAT love, I think, is rare for them - they always need to crosscheck things, can't help it.

  3. #63
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Ah. Well romantic love for INFJ probably isn't... but everything else might be related.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  4. #64
    Senior Member amelie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing. Except to admit we're selfishly nice is unacceptable. So we cover everything up by acting "unselfishly" nice. Self-giving taken to the extreme.
    Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?

  5. #65
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by amelie View Post
    Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?
    *nod nod* I fake to the extent that I may not genuinely feel as pleasant as I wish I did or as patient as I wish I did, but that's the key -- as I wish I did. I have ideals for my own behavior. It's got zero to do with wanting to be liked by anybody but myself and god, if it's on a day when I believe in god. It has to do with measuring myself against how good I could be if I could stay in the good zone. This seems to me to be largely a matter of self-discipline, like, I know I could do it if I only tried harder. Of course as I get older, I realize I'm human and I can't, and it's hubris to think I could. But it doesn't keep me from trying.

    It's definitely not for the sake of anybody's approval because I prefer to depend on things that are actually reliable, and since we're all human, approval ratings fluctuate, so they become irrelevant as a measure.

  6. #66
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If everyone disagreed with your choice, would you change your choice?


    (And why not? What's the objective part of the choice in the first place, and how does it withstand other people disagreeing?)

  7. #67
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Let me clarify the contingent upon anything part, because obviously love can't be random or compeltely non-dependant on something. I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification. Love that isn't justifiable in the NFJ's perfect system, but doesn't have to be

    THAT love, I think, is rare for them - they always need to crosscheck things, can't help it.
    Sorry, but I don't think you're over here because you're seeking clarity for some point or other concerning NFJ's. The way you've couched your language tells me that you just want to complain ad infinitum about what you perceive to be a personality flaw in a type that you don't really understand. And the things you're saying tells me you don't really want to understand. I see nothing in your posts but criticism, not critical thinking.

    Quote Originally Posted by amelie View Post
    Respectfully disagree w/ you on this point, my former INTJ friend. I do agree that perhaps there is no such thing as a totally altruistic act, but my offers to help aren't motivated by a need for acceptance by others. Rather, they are motivated by my own need to feel that I'm a good person and making a difference in the world. At least for me, it is NOT an act or a cover up, it's an inherent state of being. I'm not a fake, and I suspect most INFJ's would say the same. I don't like people who are fake and can usually see through them and don't waste time and energy on them. This whole idea of "covering up" is rather icky from my perspective. Are you quite sure you are not actually an INTJ?
    There isn't a single person on planet Earth who is driven by completely altruistic motives. Please people.

  8. #68
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The NFJ's unique interpersonal skills are used for good by some, and evil by others.
    Hmmm...a lot of these comments apply to ENFJ. ENFJ and INFJ are very different, it's not a simple change of E vs. I. I have an ENFJ sister, and most people say we are like day and night -- she is outgoing, warm, and fun, and I'm not. I have probably average interpersonal skills, if that. I don't talk to most people, I turn down social events to have more time to spend alone, and I rarely smile. I do well one-on-one, but it may take some time for me to open up.

    Most NFJs convince themselves that whatever they're doing is somehow FOR the greater good, but whether or not it's actually good will depend on what sort of morals they absorbed from the environment they grew up in.
    Again, applies to ENFJ, mostly. I would never usurp the rights of an individual for the greater good. The idea is alien to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Yes. Very observant of you to pick it up. Fe for the most part craves approval. INFJs inherent niceness is there so that other people think we're nice. A reputation thing.
    Disagree.

    I don't care if others think I'm nice or not. Who cares about being "nice?" I do things that could be considered nice because it's just in my nature and I don't know any other way to be. Also applies to things that could be considered "not nice."


    What's gain is well being from the relationship and caring for your partner. It's not contingent directly on the person at all... nor is it on the INFJ.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    I mean love that isn't a part of some "Oh what a great person I am" kind of deal, I mean an independant love that isn't a part of an NFJ belief system or justification.
    See above.

  9. #69
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    *chuckles* I meet no disrespect when I say this.

    Examine your motives a little closer...

    If there is NOBODY around to see how you act? Will you still be nice?

    Yes. Why? Because you cannot guarantee that there's no observer. You cannot bear to be inconsistent. Reputation can be broken by a single act. That is the reason.

    The sense of self for most INFJ is quite externally derived. It's a fault I noticed in myself time and time again. A lot what we defined as desirable behaviour is based on the general's opinion. Fe caves in to please others because their opinions is a part of our self worth...
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  10. #70
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    If there is NOBODY around to see how you act? Will you still be nice?
    I'm nice to others, so I can't be nice if no one is around. I'd just be. If no one's around I'll probably be daydreaming.

    The sense of self for most INFJ is quite externally derived. It's a fault I noticed in myself time and time again. A lot what we defined as desirable behaviour is based on the general's opinion. Fe caves in to please others because their opinions is a part of our self worth...
    My last work evaluation stated "I think most people are afraid to talk to you. Not that you are a mean person..."

    If you are nice to be considered that way, then more power to you. I'm just not.

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