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  1. #91
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    A concept that I can't well explain. Something of value is rarely "objective", unless you mean from an objective stand point, it's useful to have values. I throw the terms "good" "nice" etc about quite loosely and I do apologize for not defining what I meant. Good, nice, acceptable... they're all just a stand-in for acts that are socially regarded as being important to cultivate. There is no definition for good or evil, unless there's a group consensus. Since every individuals opinion varies slightly. All Fe takes from it is the "average" opinion based on everything Ni perceived subjectively and evaluate base on that guideline.

    It might not be true for other types... But as an Ni dominant, true objectivity is impossible. Under that assumption, Fe has no problems making subjective decisions so long as the decision is based on a balanced set of view points. Here is where the Ti analysis comes in to cross check.

    Which makes the decision process of INTJs a bit of a puzzlement. How can you be objective if you recognize true objectivity is not possible? What is "truth"? Or does it not matter and you're simply making do with the closest approximation of truth?
    Em... I dunno.

    If stuff out there tends to admit stable conceptual structure, then evaluations persist and end up trustworthy.

    Which is why I don't get Fe types waltzing around claiming subjectivity. Sure, feelin's are felt, the experience is subjective, but there's some kind of stability in there somewhere too, in't there? This sign is a marker for that feeling, tears and a smile and a flower in the hand denote... he's having an affair and faking an drinking problem too! Stuff like that. Regular truth-like connections between one marker and another feeling. How else do you get to be seers?



    Mah Gawd, did I just define truth? That's not going to turn out well.

  2. #92
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    Which is why I don't get Fe types waltzing around claiming subjectivity. Sure, feelin's are felt, the experience is subjective, but there's some kind of stability in there somewhere too, in't there? This sign is a marker for that feeling, tears and a smile and a flower in the hand denote... he's having an affair and faking and drinking problem too! Stuff like that. Regular truth-like connections between one marker and another feeling. How else do you get to be seers?
    Gah! I knew it!! That creep!

    Mah Gawd, did I just define truth? That's not going to turn out well.
    omg INTJ bbqlolpowah ftw!
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  3. #93
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Is conceptual structure a T thing?

    Naw. (He says, tentatively.) Ni blast off and shows some possibilities. Not all, because it is limited by the judgment function. The judgment and the perception function in tandem create the structure. This happens over time, probably: the pair of them grow more experienced together.

    Te is apt to claim objectivity (apparently). Perhaps because it doesn't have to feel. The emphasis is not on the subjective. Fe in contrast is right in there being affective.

    But still there's structuring going on--learning, creating. Both Te and Fe are there saying yes or no (for their different reasons, according perhaps to their differing structures) to things going on out there.

    For the INXJ the semi-conscious tertiary i function is in there providing a check, an unwritten but demanding extra law--for the INTJ to occasionally burst into tears and the INFJ to occasionally go cold like stone. The E-types have no such check, they burst instead into action. Later they think/cry about it.

    Blahdiblahdiblah and therefore NTJs are as nasty as we seem iff NFJs are as nice as they seem.


    So, NFJs, take one for the team, k? Kick a puppy.

  4. #94
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Is conceptual structure a T thing?

    Naw. (He says, tentatively.) Ni blast off and shows some possibilities. Not all, because it is limited by the judgment function. The judgment and the perception function in tandem create the structure. This happens over time, probably: the pair of them grow more experienced together.

    Te is apt to claim objectivity (apparently). Perhaps because it doesn't have to feel. The emphasis is not on the subjective. Fe in contrast is right in there being affective.

    But still there's structuring going on--learning, creating. Both Te and Fe are there saying yes or no (for their different reasons, according perhaps to their differing structures) to things going on out there.

    For the INXJ the semi-conscious tertiary i function is in there providing a check, an unwritten but demanding extra law--for the INTJ to occasionally burst into tears and the INFJ to occasionally go cold like stone. The E-types have no such check, they burst instead into action. Later they think/cry about it.

    Blahdiblahdiblah and therefore NTJs are as nasty as we seem iff NFJs are as nice as they seem.

    So, NFJs, take one for the team, k? Kick a puppy.
    Ha! True...
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

  5. #95
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Naw. (He says, tentatively.) Ni blast off and shows some possibilities. Not all, because it is limited by the judgment function. The judgment and the perception function in tandem create the structure. This happens over time, probably: the pair of them grow more experienced together.

    Te is apt to claim objectivity (apparently). Perhaps because it doesn't have to feel. The emphasis is not on the subjective. Fe in contrast is right in there being affective.

    But still there's structuring going on--learning, creating. Both Te and Fe are there saying yes or no (for their different reasons, according perhaps to their differing structures) to things going on out there.
    Cognitive function RPG? Awesome! When do we get to level up?

    For the INXJ the semi-conscious tertiary i function is in there providing a check, an unwritten but demanding extra law--for the INTJ to occasionally burst into tears and the INFJ to occasionally go cold like stone. The E-types have no such check, they burst instead into action. Later they think/cry about it.

    Blahdiblahdiblah and therefore NTJs are as nasty as we seem iff NFJs are as nice as they seem.
    True! You nasty INTJ you!

    So, NFJs, take one for the team, k? Kick a puppy.
    You got it! *gives Kalach the boot*
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  6. #96
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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  7. #97
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    While I can agree the vibe of Fe/Ni and Ni/Fe is distinct, my INFJ father and I share a great many things in common, including instinctive response, temper and temperament, creative prompt, and problem-solving.
    I do think we are alike in many ways. Not enough to lump us together as "NFJs." I think ENFJ is a distinct type.

    What?? I wouldn't do that either! O.o WTH does that even mean?
    The ENFJs I know would agree with that statement. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but your response to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Depends on the person.

    The NFJ's unique interpersonal skills are used for good by some, and evil by others.

    Most NFJs convince themselves that whatever they're doing is somehow FOR the greater good, but whether or not it's actually good will depend on what sort of morals they absorbed from the environment they grew up in. (Supposedly, Fe tends to take its moral bearings more from the external environment than does Fi.)
    Was this:

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Won't deny that.
    So which one is it? Can you relate or not? Or can you just not relate to the "usurp individual rights" part? I think it's a given that in working for the common good, one would need to make sacrifices on an individual basis.

  8. #98
    Senior Member gloomy-optimist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angry Ayrab View Post
    This is a serious thread.

    I know a few ENFJ's and maybe one or two INFJ's and these people are seriously too nice to be true. They really do go out of their way to make sure everyone is happy. Are they really as nice inside as they are outside? This is a serious inquiry. Also, what is your reasoning from a practical or theoretical perspective?

    And to all the xNFJ's don't be shy, whats your perspective.
    Well, being INFJ with quite a few xNFJ friends, I can say this: we do genuinely care about people. We really put others before us. We do go out of our way to make others happy.

    Does this mean we're sweet, kind, gentle people? Hell no. Or, not all the time, at least.

    One of my best friends is ENFJ. Together, we get really moody; we say harsh things about people while they aren't there; we're sarcastic, vengeful hellcats when we're stuck in a bad mindset; we enjoy a great amount of dark humor. Do we genuinely care about people, and do we sacrifice to help them? Yeah, but hey, we're human and we like to have some fun Leave the Bible and the white picket fence at home.

    Most xNFJs I've met are a bit "shy." That doesn't necessarily mean we're scared or anything, but it does seem a trend that xNFJs are more hesitant when figuring out the personal, social, and emotional dynamics of a situation before becoming more outgoing.

  9. #99
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    My version was trying to see it as INTJ-analogue: discounting the giant black hole that is Ni, if INTJs are what they do in the outside world (via Te decision), then INFJs are what they make feel in the outside world (via Fe decision). And vice versa.

    ....

    Something. I dunno. But see, Te is evaluative, as is Fe, and evaluations are evaluations... Thinking evaluations are not automatically objective just because they use the words "true" and "false", no more so than Fe is objective just for using the words "good" and "bad". Nonetheless, both intend objectivity... don't they? And are able to reach it--somehow--right? No Fe user is really saying, oh, go ahead, don't worry about this feeling or that, it's all subjective anyway!
    i think the asepct of extraverted judging to focus on is limitation, restriction, attention to the possibilities emanating from the actual rather than theoretical internal consistency. this is what makes objectivity. it is not a private language but a shared language, tho each of us can use the tools of extraverted judging for our own individual ends. i'm thinking Te is impersonal whereas Fe is personal (which means asocial vs social, relating in terms of objective vs in terms of our own unique sense of self), but both in fact intend a level of objectivity in the sense that they are derived nd peformed/enacted from outside the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    A concept that I can't well explain. Something of value is rarely "objective", unless you mean from an objective stand point, it's useful to have values. I throw the terms "good" "nice" etc about quite loosely and I do apologize for not defining what I meant. Good, nice, acceptable... they're all just a stand-in for acts that are socially regarded as being important to cultivate. There is no definition for good or evil, unless there's a group consensus. Since every individuals opinion varies slightly. All Fe takes from it is the "average" opinion based on everything Ni perceived subjectively and evaluate base on that guideline.

    It might not be true for other types... But as an Ni dominant, true objectivity is impossible. Under that assumption, Fe has no problems making subjective decisions so long as the decision is based on a balanced set of view points. Here is where the Ti analysis comes in to cross check.

    Which makes the decision process of INTJs a bit of a puzzlement. How can you be objective if you recognize true objectivity is not possible? What is "truth"? Or does it not matter and you're simply making do with the closest approximation of truth?
    i agree. i find true objectivity to be an irrelevant concept. we operate under logical and linguistic constraints, and in a very real sense, these type of concepts only point out the limit of our current abilities to speak well with the tools and the palette of technical communication that we currently have in place. turning the world's complexity into a discourse is largely unnecessary except in areas where the discourse is breaking down or is bleeding and needs a bit of love and care.

    social value and collective good are always going to be contingent upon the prepositions and the direct/indirect objects of the sentence. to whom and for what and always why, why, why. too many different motivations, cross-purposes, and divergent needs that do not match up. hence the struggle.

    i think the intj sense of truth is largely based on "does it solve my problem." it's the ultimate pragmatism. it has the silent pull of Fi to shade it from underneath. truth is just an application of the best available solution, like a test, not the right answer but the best choice possible given what we do in fact know (premise).

    this ultimate difference is in the way in which Ti or Fi shapes our motivations. Ti wants truth and conceptual cleanness. Fi wants something more subjective and unique to experience. teh weight and distribution of these tertiary functions has a lot to do with how the other functions are balanced and expressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    If stuff out there tends to admit stable conceptual structure, then evaluations persist and end up trustworthy.

    Which is why I don't get Fe types waltzing around claiming subjectivity. Sure, feelin's are felt, the experience is subjective, but there's some kind of stability in there somewhere too, in't there? This sign is a marker for that feeling, tears and a smile and a flower in the hand denote... he's having an affair and faking an drinking problem too! Stuff like that. Regular truth-like connections between one marker and another feeling. How else do you get to be seers?
    to me this stability is the marker of extraverted judging. this is what is here, so extraverted judging answers objections "so what?" it is what it is. let's stay focused, people. chart the course!

    a more detailed analysis, tho, there is the stability of the language itself. we are masters of the language of emotion (values, relating to the world, desires, social sense of self). the stability is in the universality, the recognizability, the consistency of symbols and signs. whereas introverted judgers have a different brand of experience that is weighed categorized and compared before it is postmarked and shipped anywhere. yet no key, no map, no set of records is explicitly kept. it takes a while to open up each package and describe the contents in a meaningful way. the thread running through them is the thread of history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Te is apt to claim objectivity (apparently). Perhaps because it doesn't have to feel. The emphasis is not on the subjective. Fe in contrast is right in there being affective.

    But still there's structuring going on--learning, creating. Both Te and Fe are there saying yes or no (for their different reasons, according perhaps to their differing structures) to things going on out there.

    For the INXJ the semi-conscious tertiary i function is in there providing a check, an unwritten but demanding extra law--for the INTJ to occasionally burst into tears and the INFJ to occasionally go cold like stone. The E-types have no such check, they burst instead into action. Later they think/cry about it.

    Blahdiblahdiblah and therefore NTJs are as nasty as we seem iff NFJs are as nice as they seem.
    extraverted judging just focuses on the question at-hand. for Te there is an objective that can be solved thru logical technical problem-solving steps. for Fe there is a disruption in the vision/animation that can be smoothed over or re-negotiated or maneuvered via Fe attention to feeling, emotional environment, the art of persuasion, emotional catalyzing and preparing the way for a shared group understanding/consensus/arrangement that will achieve some sort of satisfying end for all members. satisfying everybody, getting them on the same page, workin the social chemistry, inspiring action, motivating, etc. Fe and Fi can do the same things. Fe just pays more attention to the externalities of the situation, whereas Fi uses its own reservoir of experience to organize its understanding in the current domain of social discourse.

    both extraverted judging types want to fix problems. sometimes this is for our own ends, sometimes this is for others. we can be gentle and selfish, intj can be rude and generous. the question of niceness as such is mostly irrelevant i find to both types, when all is said and done, tho infj is far more likely to care about how others perceive them. motivations enneagram wise play a big part in this as well, but intj is better at screening out F self-image based noise blaring away in the environment than poor lowly nfjs.

    the wheel that squeaks...

  10. #100
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    I do think we are alike in many ways. Not enough to lump us together as "NFJs." I think ENFJ is a distinct type.
    Ok. I can mostly agree with that. I have difficulty with it sometimes because my Fe and Ni are so close together.

    The ENFJs I know would agree with that statement. Maybe it doesn't apply to you, but your response to this: Was this: So which one is it? Can you relate or not? Or can you just not relate to the "usurp individual rights" part? I think it's a given that in working for the common good, one would need to make sacrifices on an individual basis.
    I just don't know. I mean, I realize plainly what my ugly side looks like, but I don't sacrifice people in a "corporate" manner. On the one hand, when I get angry or pushed beyond the limits of human patience, I can turn into a fire monster. But even then I'm still weighing the value of every human being that comes through my hands, almost pathologically.

    So the answer is: yes and no?
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