[Fe] ESFJ e2 "The People's ENFP"

[thoughtlost]

Gosh I'm weird.

hahahahaha, omg...
that's pretty sexy; please stop

just kidding; don't stop! That was hilarious to imagine

 

[Starry]

Just trying to ease the psychological damage if we ever start naming names.

No names.

 

[thoughtlost]

ok! I am back.

The reason why I am interested in this thread is because when I was starting out, I always got typed as ENFP/INFP and occasionally ISFP. Of course, some people got closer to the truth. But the overwhelming opinion was that I was NFP or ...at least FP.

At first, I rolled with it, but it didn't feel like me. I mean, I am "bouncy". I tend to feel awkward because notice I have more "energy" than most people and sometimes I feel ashamed/embarrassed about it (because I notice that I am different from people in that way and people do point that out. I roll with it when they do that and continue being playful/silly/expressive ...but deep down I am ashamed of how I come across in social settings). And yes, people do comment on how strange/quirky I am (again, I roll with that).

At the end of the day, when I read Fe descriptions, I relate to that the most. The shame comes from worrying that my actions prevent me from the one thing that I want ...which is a deep connection. Being playful and silly, while it keeps people laughing (and it's nice because you don't create enemies ...and even if you don't like a person ...you can just put on that mask and keep things chill), doesn't get me what I want. And then I constantly wonder what is wrong with me.

Basically, my finger is always on the pulse of how I am relating to others.

...somehow, I don't see this as a Fi thing.

 

[HongDou]

Lemme preface this by saying I mean no disrespect to ESFJs, 2s, or both. I think my posts in type discussions make it clear that I'm an advocate for talking down Sensor stereotypes/misconceptions, and especially ESFJ as hearing some self-typed INTP rant about how his ESFJ mother yelling at him for not doing the laundry once means ESFJs suck gets old after a while. Plus I have many ESFJ friends who don't fall into this "people's ENFP" archetype but certainly contain elements of what Starry's talking about so I'm interested in exploring this further. Damage control out of the way...

I think being an Fe type is a big component in this, but I think the reason this happens more often to ESFJ over ENFJ is different interaction styles (Get Things Going vs In Charge). Starry and I have talked about this before (we both have ENFJ mommas) where ENFJs can turn on the fun "Pe" feel when they want to or if they need to like a switch. However ironically both of our moms have earned nicknames in our households like "Commander in Chief" or "The Warden" meaning that there's always an undercurrent of controllingness...assertiveness...the In Charge attitude basically. For example we all know [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] is a very high strung and administrative kind of guy but he's also said he can get really crazy, chaotic, and destructive when he wants to be (or when he's drunk haha). In the same way my mom and I can go out to the salon to get our eyebrows done and my mom is making all the ladies crack up with her zany disposition, but the instant we get in the car she's back to stern mode talking about all the stuff that's stressing her out. It's the ENFJ on-and-off switch

OTOH ESFJs are Get Things Going. They're facilitators, supporters - still capable of leadership (look at MLK Jr) but maybe not naturally drawn towards it or comfortable being the orchestrator of an entire operation. I think ExxJs are most commonly described as authoritative, controlling, organized, responsible, etc. However, ESFJs are the only type to not be in the In Charge style so this could be harder to relate to when their priorities lie elsewhere in less practical, work-oriented areas. ExxPs on the other hand are attributed to being free-spirited and live-and-let-live. Combine ESFJ's devotion to their loved ones with a not-so domineering nature and they could lean towards ExxP over ExxJ.

With the two letters in between, Sensors are often pigeonholed as practical, concrete, etc. For an ESFJ reigning in the domain of interpersonal relationships, this wouldn't really strike them as something they prioritize. And taking in general bias as well, that takes ESxP off the table. Scratching off ENTP is also probably easy because ESFJs are first and foremost a Feeling type so being a Thinker is already cut off too. Now if you take the NF label which is heavily F-flavored (it's the only exclusively F type in Keirsey's temperaments), that will appeal much more to the ESFJ.

Going back to the Pe feel, I think ESFJs will vibe much more consistently Pe because they're Get Things Going so either the "switch" that ENFJs have is either not there or very rarely turned on...and if it is and they already type as ENFP that will be interpreted as "Fi backbone" because standing up for what YOU believe in has been falsely attributed to Fi. ESFJs (knowledge of MBTI or not) will see themselves as accepting, open-minded, and go with the flow because for the most part they are...they're just ignoring the part of themselves that is mandating they act this way because that is what they and others value. ENFPs also often get termed as "weird and quirky" often - you touched on why this is a soft spot for us so I won't get too into it - and because Si is hyperaware of irregularities they'll see themselves this way too. I recall an ESFJ member posting a thread saying "I may be an ESFJ, but I certainly am quirky!" I think what they're focusing on is different things about them that set themselves up for social criticism, so obviously the tactic to alleviate this would be to sugarcoat it as a positive quality in a society that values being "unconventional" and "weird".

Now as for E2, let me just list a few things that will seem more attractive and lovable for the ESFJ:

- Ne is often described as "open-minded". Being called "narrow-minded" OTOH is considered an insult. However I think the difference is that while some may be open-minded in the way they process things, one can also be open-minded in the way they choose to as well.

- NF > SJ kind of aligns with that^

- Being controlling is seen as undesirable which ESFJs can be portrayed as, while ENFPs are portrayed as flexible which is a much more desirable quality.

- Like I said above, quirkiness is valued because it sets you apart and helps you stand out while ESFJs are described as normal.

That's all I have for now but I might remember more later. I'll try talking about 2 typing as 4/7 later as well.

*mentions [MENTION=21639]Kullervo[/MENTION]* here's some more points for you since you seem skeptical of what Starry's trying to say.

 

[gromit]

I wonder if my roommie is one.

 

[Kullervo]

*mentions [MENTION=21639]Kullervo[/MENTION]* here's some more points for you since you seem skeptical of what Starry's trying to say.

Of course you had to drop my name in there at the end. I don't know, it is kind of courteous to ask before mischaracterising somebody's view.

Still, I enjoyed reading the rest of your post.

 

[HongDou]

Of course you had to drop my name in there at the end. I don't know, it is kind of courteous to ask before mischaracterising somebody's view.

Still, I enjoyed reading the rest of your post.

I dunno what I'm mischaracterizing. Starry's thread is about ESFJs frequently mistyping as ENFPs, and you responded "I find it really hard to see how these mistypes could occur if the person understands the theory." So I @'d you to try to alleviate that skepticism. Don't think you're being intentionally oppositional or anything, just throwing you some more ideas to work with.

 

[Kullervo]

I dunno what I'm mischaracterizing. Starry's thread is about ESFJs frequently mistyping as ENFPs, and you responded "I find it really hard to see how these mistypes could occur if the person understands the theory." So I @'d you to try to alleviate that skepticism. Don't think you're being intentionally oppositional or anything, just throwing you some more ideas to work with.

You seem blissfully unaware of how condescending you sound.

So, Forum Trolling 201. Class, Tactics:

1. Make an absurdly long post that is tangential to the claim you supposedly object to. In this way, you create an "information overload" - the brain's memory capacity is exhausted - that shuts down the flow of the thread and you look very intelligent in the process.
2. Slip in a dig about your opponent right at the end without any prior mention of him. This creates the maximum possible effect, because he is emotionally unprepared for what is to come
3. Double down on your innocence when your intentions are questioned, and
4. Enlist allies to mass spam the thread to ensure a total knockout



For the record, I cannot see how an ESFJ who has spent substantial time on this forum would continue to mistype as an iNtuitive when their information processing is fundamentally different. Newbies are different again, but there is of course nothing unique about an "ENFP" with 5 posts being a mistyped ESFJ. Their reasons could be no more complex than base ignorance and a desire to take on a more fashionable identity (which you did touch on).

The question is whether mistypings are prevalent among established members.

 

[HongDou]

You seem blissfully unaware about how condescending you sound.

Wasn't trying to be.

So, Forum Trolling 201. Class, Tactics:

1. Make an absurdly long post that is tangential to the claim you supposedly object to. In this way, you create an "information overload" - the brain's memory capacity is exhausted - that shuts down the flow of the thread and you look very intelligent in the process.
2. Slip in a dig about your opponent right at the end without any prior mention of him. This creates the maximum possible effect, because he is emotionally unprepared for what is to come
3. Double down on your innocence when your intentions are questioned, and
4. Enlist allies to mass spam the thread to ensure a total knockout

Um, I don't see you as my opponent or thought about doing any of this stuff. I was contributing to the thread because Starry and I are friends who have discussed this issue many times so I wanted to write a meaningful post as I felt like our conversations were leading up to a thread like this. Did not write this in opposition to you. The only reason I mentioned you was because you said you had a hard time believing this specific mistyping is becoming a trend, so I thought maybe you would want to consider other things too that hadn't been mentioned yet - honestly I only @'d in an edit to my post because I skimmed through the thread after posting...I was writing that post once I made my initial post on the first page.

No reason to be on the defense here, if you like what I said about the topic then that's all that matters really.

 

[Kullervo]

Wasn't trying to be.



Um, I don't see you as my opponent or thought about doing any of this stuff. I was contributing to the thread because Starry and I are friends who have discussed this issue many times so I wanted to write a meaningful post as I felt like our conversations were leading up to a thread like this. Did not write this in opposition to you. The only reason I mentioned you was because you said you had a hard time believing this specific mistyping is becoming a trend, so I thought maybe you would want to consider other things too that hadn't been mentioned yet - honestly I only @'d in an edit to my post because I skimmed through the thread after posting...I was writing that post once I made my initial post on the first page.

No reason to be on the defense here, if you like what I said about the topic then that's all that matters really.

I was half-joking. If you were a Ni user I would've been serious in interpreting that post as a cleverly disguised troll. I actually learned a little reading what you wrote and there aren't many people I could say that about on here.

My concern is that you're making the issue more complicated than it needs to be by confusing two separate problems for a whole. We have been down the road of questioning established members' types (for example the "fake INFJ" witch hunts that our special snowflakes ensure come in and out of fashion) before, it's hard to know for sure and the conflict never ends well.

New posters who come here are going to change their type at some point, likely as not, they were you and I once. So to be frustrated by them isn't very rational.

Oh, and tell your friend that while I may be a dick sometimes, at least I don't need other people to do my dirty work.

 

[Starry]

I thought this place was for people to chat about typology.

If it makes you feel any better I made an incorrect assumption about your meaning in the other thread and subsequently started this one. I took you to mean that you had some insight into this phenomenon and should have known better. You can't be trusted not to destroy every single thread you're involved in with your arrogance - got it. Now please leave us to it. There are other places for you to not make friends.

 

[Kullervo]

If it makes you feel any better I made an incorrect assumption about your meaning in the other thread and subsequently started this one. I took you to mean that you had some insight into this phenomenon and should have known better. You can't be trusted not to destroy every single thread you're involved in with your arrogance - got it. Now please leave us to it. There are other places for you to not make friends.

Well I have learned that you are manipulative and have no issues with being rude to people you dislike, unprovoked. I will take arrogance over that any day.

You won't see me in this thread again, I can promise you that.

 

[Starry]

You won't see me in this thread again, I can promise you that.

Much appreciated.

 

[Tilt]

Ha. Interesting. I have a hard time conceptually confusing the two in my head.... ENFPs are just so different and ESFJs are just so... Seated in their realm of "normal".

 

[Yama]

Ha. Interesting. I have a hard time conceptually confusing the two in my head.... ENFPs are just so different and ESFJs are just so... Seated in their realm of "normal".

That's why so many ESFJs mistype as ENFPs--because everyone thinks they're normal and boring but they feel more complex than the stereotype allows.

 

[Starry]

That's why so many ESFJs mistype as ENFPs--because everyone thinks they're normal and boring but they feel more complex than the stereotype allows.

Thank you, thank you, thank you 21lux.

I was just telling Chanaynay that I'm slightly under the weather and trying to talk about something that causes people discomfort.

Ill have to try again when I'm a bit stronger...but I'm very deliberately using "The People's ENFP" because I believe there is more ESFJ in what everyone claims to love about the ENFP - than ENFP.

 

[Amargith]

*submits for inspection at the mbti factory*

 

[Tilt]

That's why so many ESFJs mistype as ENFPs--because everyone thinks they're normal and boring but they feel more complex than the stereotype allows.

I have seen the ESFJ zany side... It's a much more subdued Ne humor/punny for people who they tend to be closer to. It sometimes gives them an "inappropriate", raunchy, seemingly out of character sense of humor (kind of poking fun of Si observations and Fe "expectations"). However, the primary mode seems to be about fitting into whatever standards that they deem normal.

ENFPs are pretty zany all the time.... It's part of the charm. To me, it feels like a tidal wave. Lol

Thank you, thank you, thank you 21lux.

I was just telling Chanaynay that I'm slightly under the weather and trying to talk about something that causes people discomfort.

Ill have to try again when I'm a bit stronger...but I'm very deliberately using "The People's ENFP" because I believe there is more ESFJ in what everyone claims to love about the ENFP - than ENFP.

I understand and can appreciate the idea but I still have a hard time picturing an ESFJ masquerading a long time as an ENFP... the differences seem too glaring to me. Fe vs. Fi, J vs. P in how they manifest in real life.

This is just how I have personally experienced ENFPs vs. ESFJ 2s (among others).

 

[Yama]

I have seen the ESFJ zany side... It's a much more subdued Ne humor/punny for people who they tend to closer to. It sometimes gives them an "inappropriate", raunchy, seemingly out of character sense of humor (kind of poking fun of Si observations and Fe "expectations"). However, the primary mode seems to be about fitting into whatever standards that they deem normal.

ENFPs are pretty zany all the time.... It's part of the charm. To me, it feels like a tidal wave. Lol

I mean, it's kind of simplistic to see ESFJs as just society-following simpletons with no thoughts or ideas of their own, which is what a lot of ESFJ stereotypes are like. Nor are all ENFPs zany all the time without the capacity to slow down and have any chill. I'm not trying to imply that's what you specifically were saying, but that that's why potential ESFJs would rather think they're ENFPS, by implying that ESFJs are essentially just more boring versions of ENFPs. It's similar to why ISFJs often mistype as INFJs--because S types are simple and N types are "deep" and who wants to think of themselves as simple?

Obviously not all ENFPs are mistyped ESFJs, but I think the reason you don't see a lot of ESFJs around on the forum is because they've all mistyped as a different type (and the trend tends to be ENFP). Because why be a boring, uninteresting ESFJ with a lame sense of humor when you can be a fun and exciting and bubbly ENFP instead?

 

[Tilt]

I mean, it's kind of simplistic to see ESFJs as just society-following simpletons with no thoughts or ideas of their own, which is what a lot of ESFJ stereotypes are like. Nor are all ENFPs zany all the time without the capacity to slow down and have any chill. I'm not trying to imply that's what you specifically were saying, but that that's why potential ESFJs would rather think they're ENFPS, by implying that ESFJs are essentially just more boring versions of ENFPs. It's similar to why ISFJs often mistype as INFJs--because S types are simple and N types are "deep" and who wants to think of themselves as simple?

Obviously not all ENFPs are mistyped ESFJs, but I think the reason you don't see a lot of ESFJs around on the forum is because they've all mistyped as a different type (and the trend tends to be ENFP). Because why be a boring, uninteresting ESFJ with a lame sense of humor when you can be a fun and exciting and bubbly ENFP instead?

I can understand all that and could definitely see ESFJs mistype as ENFPs but they just seem so different... Fe Si manifests quite differently than Ne Fi. There is just a distinctly different vibe/energy from both types. I use Fe (ENFJ) as a dominant function so I can usually see it in others. Ne dominance reads completely different to me. I will expand on it more when I am more awake.