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  1. #21
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The lower the function, the more negative it is. The lower it is, the less we use it. The less we use it, the less comfortable we are with it.

    Introverted Thinking is concerned with deep thinking, especially in relation to ourselves. This is what the EFJs have the most negative attitude towards.

    Above a perfect example. An INTP who has a seriously negative attitude towards Fe (his lowest function). I'm not sure that I've ever felt so negative towards Ti (perhaps having a parental figure with Ti as his highest function helped.

    I personally am not afraid to reflect on my dark thoughts. The problem is not fear of reflecting (which I think any healthy type will (or should) do) the problem is getting out once I get there. As Lookin4 said it can be strangely seductive and I know I have lost myself in dark thoughts for much longer than is healthy or productive. When I come up and out of it into the light I'm always amazed I have/had the strength to go thru what I have. I think with age comes the ability to reflect in a balanced healthy way. There are some things that only experience and time can do.

    As for simple reflection...I need me time every day to do the reflecting that I need to do to stay balanced. Much of my day is given in service to others so I make sure I take time out for myself. I've always done this (even as a baby enfj, tho not to the extent I do it now) but I've always recognized the need for some introspection...
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Littlelostnf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Well for one, I think you're hitting I/E differences. I'm not going to use the word reflect because you're right, that's not necessarily bad. It depends on what I'm introspecting on more than likely when I introspect it turns negative. Which is why I assumed negative when you asked if ENFJs reflect. When I reflect about how my day went or a conversation with someone, that's pretty neutral. I thought you were asking how do we reflect about ourselves which doesn't not tend to be a good experience. But sometimes it has to be done to figure out some aspects of yourself, but it's not particularly pleasant.

    Notice what pink says, she says when she reflects about herself she tends to brood. Brooding means to dwell on a subject or to meditate with morbid persistence. Extroverts tend to experience their interiority negatively just as introverts tend to experience the outside world negatively. Basically that means that I don't sink into myself the way introverts do. And that's not a bad thing and it doesn't mean I avoid thinking why I am the way I am, or why I do the things I do, or why I think the way I think. But if you're asking if I'm constantly taking an conscious temperature on those things, no I don't. But that's what makes me an extrovert, I suppose. I am more extrospective than introspective (introspective meaning considering my internal state or feelings), simply because I find that easier and a more interesting thing to do. Just as I'm sure you find it easier and more pleasant to introspect than extrospect.

    But I'm still not sure what you mean when you say reflect (or do you mean reflective?). I have a cluster of words in my mind when you say reflect: introspect, self-examination, self-aware. On this forum, it's assumed that being an introvert automatically makes one better at those things than being an extrovert. But there are clusters of positive traits that go along with being an extrovert that aren't really exalted here. So I'm not sure what you mean when you say ENFJs don't like to reflect or be self-aware because I think you can be self-aware through extroversion as well.
    You stated that very well Protean...A++ and thank you.
    for my life is slowed up by thought and the need to understand what I am living.

  3. #23
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Perhaps, past a point, ENFJs feel overpowered by negativity because it keeps mashing on our Fe. If we can't get a break from said negativity, we start trying to buck it off, just to get breathing room.

    Otherwise, I'm a storm cloud. Well, until LadyJaye wakes up and rains parachuting candy floss teddy bears with ray guns into my realm. Darn her! I was a broody puzzling baby and Jaye was a friendly cuddly baby.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  4. #24
    Scream down the boulevard LadyJaye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    Otherwise, I'm a storm cloud. Well, until LadyJaye wakes up and rains parachuting candy floss teddy bears with ray guns into my realm. Darn her! I was a broody puzzling baby and Jaye was a friendly cuddly baby.
    That had better not be a complaint. Or I'll have to bring out my army of hugging panda bears with bubblegum grenades and glitter hearts.

    You have been warned.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Default dark thoughts

    I found this part to be most accurate from Pink, "Brooding means to dwell on a subject or to meditate with morbid persistence," but not a whole answer to question posed in this thread. I definitely think there is more to it.

    Being an Enneagram 1 (reformer) and (with the trait highest of perfectionism at 75%) I struggle with moral correctness in private or living life right so as not to be found in the wrong and needing clarity of what that entails. Perfectionism is a continual struggle and may be also heavily blurred with some idealism.The greater the disparity of the ideal and the real the harder to integrate the disappointment for me.

    In private I dwell or brood and it easily magnifies the problem (or in reality what is a small irritation) and I lack objective perspective (the Ti maybe). Righteous anger at violating a value (in myself or received from another person) also works me up. Generally negativity is hard to push aside and the internal dialogue is not always positive at all. I have made a choice to downplay ulterior motives (that I perceive esp in women/manipulative ppl) and take things at face value in conflict to help alleviate some of this.

    Maybe also it is "fun" to be identity seeking in private and searching for who I am that may be hidden from even myself at times. This doesn't always lead to cheerfulness and I need some light fun or personal extroversion to pull me back up from the depths that I am coming up blank on.

    P.S. Any other ENFJ Enneagram 1's(reformer) out there? Feels like I am far from understanding the 2s (the giver) sometimes.
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
    Intuitive (N) 51.72% Sensing (S) 48.28%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 69.44% Perceiving (P) 30.56%

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
    so/sx/sp

  6. #26
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Wow, another ENFJ Enneagram 1!

    oooh, and you said righteous anger. *shivers*

    I think ENFJ E1s present differently than E2s and most ENFJs seem to be E2s and those tend to be the more stereotypical ENFJ.

    I really would like to talk about being ENFJ and E1 because I've found that it's helped explain some of the key differences I've noticed between myself and other ENFJs.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  7. #27
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wow, another ENFJ Enneagram 1!

    oooh, and you said righteous anger. *shivers*

    I think ENFJ E1s present differently than E2s and most ENFJs seem to be E2s and those tend to be the more stereotypical ENFJ.

    I really would like to talk about being ENFJ and E1 because I've found that it's helped explain some of the key differences I've noticed between myself and other ENFJs.
    So that's why you end up making a little more sense to me. E1 is a level of integration from E4, which is what I am. Anyway, sorry for the derail.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  8. #28
    Senior Member Neutralpov's Avatar
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    Default 4= emo?

    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    So that's why you end up making a little more sense to me. E1 is a level of integration from E4, which is what I am. Anyway, sorry for the derail.
    yeah my close friend is an INFP and she tested once a Enn. 4 and that made me laugh.

    We ENFJ's also like the counter culture, which for some reason I feel is the 4.(maybe since I am in Austin and 1/3 everyone is a moody musician). Or at least I like the counter culture. Can't speak for other ENFJ's I guess.

    -Heather

    P.S. Thank you and hello proteanmix! Strong one over here and what totally annoys me is the critical internal dialogue...I could live without it and I believe the base fear is being found wrong/morally defective. What is a life without meaning anyway?
    Extroverted (E) 67.74% Introverted (I) 32.26%
    Intuitive (N) 51.72% Sensing (S) 48.28%
    Feeling (F) 51.61% Thinking (T) 48.39%
    Judging (J) 69.44% Perceiving (P) 30.56%

    Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||||||||||||| 83%
    so/sx/sp

  9. #29
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    This is one of the reasons why I prefer too be busy with something like a project or a story idea. Gets me off the crap and half the time produces something usefull as well.
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

    INFP, 6w7, IEI

    I accept no responsibility, what so ever, for the fact that I exist; I do, however, accept full responsibility for what I do while I exist.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  10. #30
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeatherC View Post
    I found this part to be most accurate from Pink, "Brooding means to dwell on a subject or to meditate with morbid persistence," but not a whole answer to question posed in this thread. I definitely think there is more to it.
    Welcome, Heather, and kudos to you for jumping right in.

    Being an Enneagram 1 (reformer) and (with the trait highest of perfectionism at 75%) I struggle with moral correctness in private or living life right so as not to be found in the wrong and needing clarity of what that entails. Perfectionism is a continual struggle and may be also heavily blurred with some idealism.The greater the disparity of the ideal and the real the harder to integrate the disappointment for me.
    I struggled SO hard with perfectionism (still do). When I was in 4th grade and got ONE B on a card full of As, I burst into tears, went to my teacher, and said, "Why didn't you tell me?! I could have DONE something about this! WHY?!" Thank goodness he was an INFJ and was able to settle me down (while looking disturbed).

    Not to say that I always made As. Just that when I was pulling them down, I wouldn't settle for less. In elementary school, I was in gifted classes with my sister, and it was something of an internal competition amongst my friends for annual test grades. I have no idea WHO thought that was a good idea -- to place so much pressure on children of that age who aren't mature enough or experienced enough to handle it. I mean it was architectural studies with detailed reports on historic homes we toured and specific designers (with designs of your own made in 3D), it was running your own business and making it work, it was global culture and a huge cohesive presentation made about it. I wasn't even out of 3rd grade and already I had this super competitive streak that was, in my opinion, consuming.

    Years on a swim team was an outlet for the same thing - exerting myself and getting the best of someone else. 2nd place was almost NEVER enough and it could ruin my day. There was one girl in particular from another team from the posh end of the city that I was perfectly matched against, but I liked her, so competing against her was sharpening not aggressive. We looked forward every year to standing at the blocks and chatting and then putting the pedal down on each other. Some years she won, some years I did. It was great for my conquering nature to be cowed at times, then rewarded by a worthy foe.

    I see a very strong tie between competition and perfectionism. Perhaps I'm off base?

    I don't know what Enneagram type I am.

    In private I dwell or brood and it easily magnifies the problem (or in reality what is a small irritation) and I lack objective perspective (the Ti maybe). Righteous anger at violating a value (in myself or received from another person) also works me up. Generally negativity is hard to push aside and the internal dialogue is not always positive at all. I have made a choice to downplay ulterior motives (that I perceive esp in women/manipulative ppl) and take things at face value in conflict to help alleviate some of this.
    I can relate. Righteous anger is the bane of my existence. Someone once told me that I reminded them of Nemesis. I thought it was strange to say at the time, but I looked into her and saw that it resonated deeply with me. She wasn't a violent woman, she was obsessed with righting wrongs, esp for those who couldn't fight their own battles. It was less revenge and more avenging.

    I used to dig at the real meaning of a person's words (esp when my BS meter detected a lie) and I found it exhausting (because liars are exhausting, like chasing a rabbit through a warren of tunnels) until I decided that even if I *could* see a lie or a half-truth, I was going to let it ride and watch how it unravels. Choosing not to care *that much* was a relief to me.

    The highlighted part, were you manipulated or subjected to unjust restrictions/punishments growing up?

    Maybe also it is "fun" to be identity seeking in private and searching for who I am that may be hidden from even myself at times. This doesn't always lead to cheerfulness and I need some light fun or personal extroversion to pull me back up from the depths that I am coming up blank on.
    I frequently frustrate and surprise myself with elements about myself that I didn't know were there. My ENFP sister has learned to take a lot of what I do in stride, because who knows what's going on under the surface? Sometimes even I don't, though I spend a great deal of my time brooding and trying to dig at myself to get to what I know must surely be the key.

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