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  1. #391
    Senior Member Nonsensical's Avatar
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    Well, on the other side of the spectrum, I'm certain that some Fs have problems/lack understanding with Ts. I don't, but others may and do.

    But that's the whole point of this forum, is it not? To help better understand others personalities. At least, that's what I see it as. Whenever I come across something I don't quite understand and related to personalities, I usually find my answer after being here and talking for a bit.

    I don't think it should be seen as insulting, too. We all think differently, act differently, and have our own views. Sure we are going to disagree and have disputes and rule out personalities and people as irrational and wrong, but what that represents is lack of understanding. Spend enough time here and you'll have some of your answers. Spend some time in the real world with an open mind, and you'd be damned not to have all of your answers fulfilled.

    That's my summary. Like it or hate it.
    Is it that by its indefiniteness it shadows forth the heartless voids and immensities of the universe, and thus stabs us from behind with the thought of annihilation, when beholding the white depths of the milky way?

  2. #392
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    In the part you quoted, I already said there are no angelic human beings. I never claimed Fi or Feelers didn't have their faults. I was merely pointing out that I've had just as much to-do over bruised feelings from thinkers (especially female thinkers) in my life and they are often harder for me to deal with and they seem almost disassociated from their feelings, as if their own feelings are big mystery to them that haunts them but cannot be seen. That's the best way I know to put it into words.
    Have you tried talking to them in their own language? If you hadn't noticed they tend to get upset when they're trying to conduct a conversation with you in their language (Ti) and you sidetrack the progression of the discussion with critiques of their ethics--it just comes off as condescending and insulting because it implies to us that you don't think our Thinking language is worth any consideration. If you want to identify with us, it makes us feel a lot more comfortable with you if you'll try and speak to us in terms we understand.

    As I've pointed out before, often if we are experiencing our typically smaller range of emotion in the form of being slightly agitated with some perceived logical inconsistency, even if we weren't really very upset in the first place, you continued insistence on steering the conversation toward discussing our feelings/critiquing our ethics is perceived as counterproductive and, generally, very annoying--your claims become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you won't stop accusing of outrageous emotional states until we actually BECOME upset because you won't drop it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Heart
    My exact words were that when a thinker (especially a female one) has their feelings hurt, they seem to be almost disassociated from them yet haunted by them. Now that's not saying that thinkers are always governed by Fi or Fe, is it? Well, is it?
    I don't know, but I do know that it's a mistake to imply that "haunting feelings" are somehow hijacking the driver's seat in the majority of our decision-making, and a little Ne should show you how ridiculous that appears from our perspective as Thinkers.

    The fact is we simply don't attach the same emotional value to words that you do, and this is an especially bad problem online. If you want us to understand each other better, you need to drop this whole thing about "I KNOW YOU THINK YOU'RE RATIONAL BUT IT'S REALLY CUZ OF HAUNTING FEELINGS LOL" because it's just silly. Normally it doesn't make us upset, but if you keep pushing it over and over we get irritated that you refuse to engage us in our own language (typically Ti-oriented debate) and we really just don't particularly care about your critiques of our ethics or whatnot when we're in the heat of a debate. Ne/Ti is exploring ideas and Fe isn't coming out when that's happening.



    Quote Originally Posted by Heart
    Where the hell are you getting this from? I believe I said that both thinkers and feelers have their faults when it comes to dealing with hurt feelings, they are just expressed differently.
    I've learned from experience by now that it's best not to acknowledge Fi's "deer in the headlights didn't mean a thing by it!" innocence act. People give Fe a lot of shit for emotional manipulation but Fi is pretty proficient at it too, in a subtly different way.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't know, but I do know that it's a mistake to imply that "haunting feelings" are somehow hijacking the driver's seat in the majority of our decision-making, and a little Ne should show you how ridiculous that appears from our perspective as Thinkers..
    Never did I say "haunting feelings" are hijacking the majority of a thinker's decisions. You're having a totally different conversation than I am.

    Unless somehow you're implying that thinkers go around with their feelings deeply hurt ALL the time. Are you?

    As I've pointed out before, often if we are experiencing our typically smaller range of emotion in the form of being slightly agitated with some perceived logical inconsistency, even if we weren't really very upset in the first place, you continued insistence on steering the conversation toward discussing our feelings/critiquing our ethics is perceived as counterproductive and, generally, very annoying--your claims become a self-fulfilling prophecy because you won't stop accusing of outrageous emotional states until we actually BECOME upset because you won't drop it.
    Actually I usually avoid these people until they get their tail out of a knot. I am not looking to play anyone's emotional nanny, I had enough of that forced on me in my youth.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I've learned from experience by now that it's best not to acknowledge Fi's "deer in the headlights didn't mean a thing by it!" innocence act. People give Fe a lot of shit for emotional manipulation but Fi is pretty proficient at it too, in a subtly different way.
    I already said both Feelers and Thinkers can be difficult to deal with when their feelings are hurt but in different ways, neither is angelic. You are the one spinning into some kind of defense of Fi or that I am saying Fi in particular can't be difficult. I haven't gone into Fi verses Fe at all.

    It is like you are having a totally different conversation.

  5. #395
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Aren't we always?

    Ti and Fi are different languages and neither thinks the other is as objectively good as itself.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #396
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    SW, I think Heart is referring to those times that a person's tertiary function uses the two main functions to express its wishes. Heart, correct me if I'm wrong.

    Yes, it happens that Fi and Ti misunderstand each other very much (we've had this discussion ), but that's a different topic altogether.

    I think she's talking about those times that even NTs get shaken emotionally and respond by using their main functions because it is easier to work with than to express those feelings they don't trust as such.

    The same goes for me for instance, when I want to get stuff done and people are in my way. I'll sulk and bitch because I feel they're morons for being in my way. Meanwhile it's my Te abusing my Fi to express my need to get things done. The same would be true for your Fe.
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Aren't we always?

    Ti and Fi are different languages and neither thinks the other is as objectively good as itself.
    I don't understand where you get "everything" and "always" out of what I said. I never said that thinkers are always basing everything on some shadow feeling. I said only when they've had their feelings deeply hurt.

    But you re-phrased what I said and claimed me to be saying something more extreme and different from what I said.

    I somehow doubt that can be put down to a difference between Ti and Fi.

  8. #398
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I'm really only speaking in general conceptualized terms here. I should think we've had enough correspondence by now that you'd recognize that I don't like making universal S-style generalizations, so take them for what they are.

    My point is not that what you claim *never* happens, just that it doesn't play nearly as big a part in most interactions with Thinkers as you seem to believe it does.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #399
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    F people creep me out. I don't understand them. I see making decisions off of your feelings as selfish and irrisponsible. The worst excuse ever, "I felt like it", like that matters. If people justify their actions according to their feelings where is the line that says what you were feeling is wrong. It seems immature. How is putting your feelings on someone else productive to anything? Where is the self control? You cant argue against what someone is feeling and asking someone to take your feelings into account is like asking them to cater unobjectively to you.

    I am not trying to make people mad here I am trying to understand. What makes you all tick?
    I agree that it is potentially destructive to act only to achieve a desired feeling without taking consequences or ramifications into account. I'm not entirely convinced that is what the Feeling function suggests. What I understand the "Feeling" function is doing is to take into account the personal information and outcomes of a choice as well as the external, measurable information and outcome (or maybe that is what happens when F an T combine, since it is difficult to completely isolate either). For example, while it might make sense that a certain breed of dog would be the most practical and easiest to manage choice, if the children in the family have a strong, positive emotional reaction to another dog, it might be worth the emotional reward to go with that choice over the strictly practical choice. Or for another example, if a particular decision is going to cause emotional pain in self or others, it is worth weighing that pain as one of the variables in making the decision.

    Egocentricity (meaning that self only is taken into account) is the foundation of what cannot be reasoned with whether it is applied to emotions or ideas. The ability to take self into account as merely one variable amongst many is the more reasoned, unbiased perspective. Why should my feelings or personal benefits be of greater importance than another human being only because I happen to have consciousness from my vantage point? For example, if I apply for the greatest job opportunity of my life, and someone more qualified has also applied, then the more qualified person should get the job regardless of how much it would benefit me intellectually or emotionally. From a non-ego invested perspective, I should root for the most qualified person and not be influenced by the fact that my experience is grounded in myself and not the other person.

    The letting go of self as nothing more than equivalent amongst others is the least biased and potentially most empathetic position. This is how I understand the decision process of the "Feeler" to be invested. It is holistic.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

  10. #400
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    A perfect case in point is the NFP-riddled raging political left. They often practice intolerance in the name of squelching intolerance ("You're not a SOCIALIST?! Moron!" comes to mind), and something about that doesn't sit right with me.
    In defense of my comrades, I usually do this because the opposing argument makes no sense whatsoever, or when I point out the logical inconsistencies, the name calling starts.


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