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  1. #331
    heart on fire
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    Classics in the History of Psychology -- Jung (1921/1923) Chapter 10


    Psychological Types

    C. G. Jung (1921)
    Translation by H. Godwyn Baynes (1923)

    Section 4 is on Introverted Feeling

  2. #332
    Senior Member sketcheasy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, to seriously nit-pick, I think someone would be very hard-pressed to logically justify concluding that 2 + 2 = 7.

    But yes, I think most of use get your actual point. It's extremely problematic when someone has complete faith in their own grasp on logic, truth, and objectivity. A small pretence of fallibilism is important for people to be consistently realistic or just. Without it, one cannot learn, and cannot be persuaded. It's rather dangerous for themselves and others.

    One must be able to examine themselves for error, and correct it when they see it. BlueWing himself only seems to admit error with petty mistakes, or more specifically mistakes that do not relate to logic. When it comes to logic and rationale, however, he both acts as if, and has essentially stated that, he knows the universal and true language of reason. It's actually this aspect that has constituted someone of the most vacuous aspects of his arguments.
    sorry, i've been following this argument closely and i just came across this post.

    so far i've very much agreed with a lot of your arguments but i'd just like to point out that you're 2+2=7 isn't necessarily off. there's a bit of a logical glass ceiling that exists. there is a limit to logic, especially human logic.

    there are situations in math and science where 2+2 does not equal four. i mention this because it illustrates the fact that logic itself isn't infallible. when logic starts to contradict itself we find ourselves in the realm of the irrational, of the abstract. if you try to apply logic to it you will drive yourself insane because you will never find the answer. i believe the same applies to our decisions, society, and the individual.

    we do not exist in a world of ideal situations, where 2+2=4. the normal rules of logic, rationality, and thinking are not sufficient in dealing with the complications of everyday life. a subjective, abstract way of coping with it is necessary to navigate life when we can no longer rely on our own finite minds. be it from God or natural selection, your emotions are there because they have some necessary function.

  3. #333
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    Two couples exist now. They later have three childern between them. 2 and 2 equals seven. That's ENTP logic.

  4. #334
    Senior Member sciski's Avatar
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    ThatGirl, could you give us a description of an immature thinker? I'd like to know how that would appear to you.

  5. #335
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketcheasy View Post
    sorry, i've been following this argument closely and i just came across this post.

    so far i've very much agreed with a lot of your arguments but i'd just like to point out that you're 2+2=7 isn't necessarily off. there's a bit of a logical glass ceiling that exists. there is a limit to logic, especially human logic.

    there are situations in math and science where 2+2 does not equal four. i mention this because it illustrates the fact that logic itself isn't infallible. when logic starts to contradict itself we find ourselves in the realm of the irrational, of the abstract. if you try to apply logic to it you will drive yourself insane because you will never find the answer. i believe the same applies to our decisions, society, and the individual.

    we do not exist in a world of ideal situations, where 2+2=4. the normal rules of logic, rationality, and thinking are not sufficient in dealing with the complications of everyday life. a subjective, abstract way of coping with it is necessary to navigate life when we can no longer rely on our own finite minds. be it from God or natural selection, your emotions are there because they have some necessary function.
    Ah, yes, and my INFJ father made me aware of the problems with logic when I, as a 12 year old INFP/INXP daughter read a book on logic and discussed it with him. I was trying to get better at debating with my parents. And it worked. But soon I had everybody in the family calling everybody else out on overgeneralizations and oversimplifications. LOL

    My father made me aware of the work of Godel. Really, are most NTs not aware of Godel? He proved the limits of math. The logical positivists also demonstrated the limits of logic in a different way. Those who always use the word logic would do well to look into Godel, logical positivism, and even things like fuzzy logic. Also emotional decisionmaking used in artificial intelligence.

    Quote: Emotions are ordinarily conceived as irrational occurrences that cloud judgment and distort reasoning. This view is well entrenched, despite work in both philosophy and psychology that establishes a strong connection between emotion and cognition. During recent years there has been an explosion of research which indicates that rather than being natural adversaries, rational and emotional processes function together. Barnes and Thagard (in press) argue that emotions and inferences are both necessary when we empathize with other people. Social psychologists have explored the function of emotions in social perception and judgment (Forgas, 1991). But the interdependence of emotional and cognitive processes is perhaps most powerfully presented in recent neurobiological studies which establish that emotion is indispensable in rational decision making.

  6. #336
    Senior Member sketcheasy's Avatar
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    right.

    immature thinkers give me the creeps just as much as feelers do. i personally dislike both. you gotta develop both. i mean yeah, you're never gonna be 50/50 but what's important is that you as an individual learn the discipline not to be swept away by your emotions and to have the maturity to let logic and common sense allow you to deal with emotions. thinkers, emotions are great. they're good for you. don't be afraid of them and don't belittle them. emotions are what gives depth in the unfolding drama of life. the strongest individuals i know are the ones who are open about their emotions and are willing to up to them, especially the difficult ones. it is your guide when you can't find the answers on your own. you're only human.

    your mind and your heart are both equally capable of leading you astray. what's logical and rational isn't always right or fulfilling. likewise, what feels good isn't always gonna make sense and that should indicate that you need to really examine what it is you're feeling and why you feel it. sometimes it means that you should take a step back and ignore it.


    feeling and thinking are guides you use. how you react and interpret the messages they send you is what's important, not the functions themselves.

  7. #337
    Senor Membrane
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    Well said.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by sketcheasy View Post
    right.

    immature thinkers give me the creeps just as much as feelers do. i personally dislike both. you gotta develop both. i mean yeah, you're never gonna be 50/50 but what's important is that you as an individual learn the discipline not to be swept away by your emotions and to have the maturity to let logic and common sense allow you to deal with emotions. thinkers, emotions are great. they're good for you. don't be afraid of them and don't belittle them. emotions are what gives depth in the unfolding drama of life. the strongest individuals i know are the ones who are open about their emotions and are willing to up to them, especially the difficult ones. it is your guide when you can't find the answers on your own. you're only human.

    your mind and your heart are both equally capable of leading you astray. what's logical and rational isn't always right or fulfilling. likewise, what feels good isn't always gonna make sense and that should indicate that you need to really examine what it is you're feeling and why you feel it. sometimes it means that you should take a step back and ignore it.


    feeling and thinking are guides you use. how you react and interpret the messages they send you is what's important, not the functions themselves.
    This just reminded me of Silent Bob

    I agree well said

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    ThatGirl, could you give us a description of an immature thinker? I'd like to know how that would appear to you.
    Immature thinkers?

    Hold very long grudges even if the feeling has passed because they rationalized their feelings into a logical truth.

    Arrogant and self validating

    Fail to view from opposing views if the have already decided on something

    Stubborn

    Obstinate

    Condescending

    ? This all may sound bias maybe a feeler can shed a little light for this question?

  10. #340
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Immature thinkers?

    Hold very long grudges even if the feeling has passed because they rationalized their feelings into a logical truth.

    Arrogant and self validating

    Fail to view from opposing views if the have already decided on something

    Stubborn

    Obstinate

    Condescending

    ? This all may sound bias maybe a feeler can shed a little light for this question?
    Did just fine, Girl. I'd say the "arrogant and self-validating" is the worst bugaboo, esp for Ne/Te primaries. That internal loop starts up and there's no throwing the brakes on. I mean, why would you brake? You're the law unto yourself. Screw the rest of the world. Once that gets conquered, the other things tend to fall into place. I must say that as an ENFJ even I wrestle with grabs for power. That inner tyrant is lashed to tree most of the time.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
    Neutral Good
    EII-Fi subtype, Ethical/Empath, Delta/Beta
    RLUEI, Choleric/Melancholic
    Inquistive/Limbic
    AIS Holland code
    Researcher: VDI-P
    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

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