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  1. #131
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I would say that the view I had was true for some thinkers and the view she has of feelers is true for some feelers. .
    The only Fs who are an exception to her view are those who are able to use the Thinking function properly. This is the only way one can avoid being dominated by 'what I felt like'.





    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    She's certainly wrapped it up as if it were a rational foundation but she's scarely made the case that it is the case for all feelers, .
    Where does it say that the message depicts all feelers?


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    nor has she made an adequate case that all thinkers are immune to having flawed logic..
    Relevance? She is only talking about Feelers, not thinkers.


    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I like to say that her choice of lanugage reveals a feeling source for her post. The creeps is more of a "it feels like" type of a statement. Whether she did so as a joke or not, the fact that it came to her as title is very telling...
    That is a peripheral remark. Her thesis was that Fs tend to make decisions based on how they felt due to lack of adequate support of the Thinking function.

    You overlooked that in favor of citing an emotional reaction. This is just like the scenario where I am explaining a case to an F and they dont hear any of it because they were too busy studying my body language, intonation and facial expressions. Their excuse is but Ts do it too! Yes, Ts do it to the extent that they rely on their Feeling function. As some in this thread have said Thinkers can be whimsical too. Yes, just less whimsical. There is a fine line between getting thrown off the rails by your emotions here and there and being completely ruled by them.

    I think the most troubling aspects of the Feeler/Thinker divide are those people who are unbalanced too much in either direction. The feeler who doesn't apply logic and the thinker who fears/distrusts the shadow F side and yet is possessed by it again and again and unwittingly uses logic to justify its dictates.

    So, the more F you are the more whimsical you are likely to be. One could say, but what about the shadow or tertiary F. Is not it also the case that the lower the function, the more difficult it is to control? Yes. But in most cases when it spins out of control, it is supressed by Thinking. When it does manifest externally, it is usually the case that the Thinker sees no problem with letting it show. Does not see any negative rational consequences behind this.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    It's the extremes that cause most of the difficulties in this world. That's the view I am coming to more and more.
    Feeling is clearly more responsible for the difficulties in this world. Too much thinking will merely lead the person to avoid being able to recognize the implicit needs of other people. But they would be able to think clearly and make sound decisions.This could only lead to very few problems, namely some people will just be getting trampled over. It is their fault. They should have just been stronger. A Feeler could say that a lack of Feeling leads to a very uncooperative society. That is not true. A good thinker will see when it is time to cooperate and when it is time to fend for oneself by virtue of analysis.

    If anything supressing Feeling will retrench whimsical acts of cooperation and other banalities Feeling is responsible for.

    Thinkers use logic unwittingly to justify its dictates? Yeah. The dictates of logic is doing what is rational. The bad news for the 'feeler' is that the sympathy card gets removed from the table. Without this, it is difficult to persuade the thinker to do the bidding of a feeler based on simply 'I want you to', or 'I feel like it'.

    I see no problem at all with this.

    Excessive on Thinking is not nearly as problematic as excessively reliance on Feeling because the former in the former case one is able to make sound decisions, in the latter one is not because they are governed by erratic winds of passion.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  2. #132
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Most Fs do not do this, they are merely ruled by their torrential passions.
    My Dear Mr. BlueWing, if it makes you feel any better, I assure you that feelers who encounter you are not likely to feel torrential passions.

  3. #133
    Senior Member Members Only's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    and the thinker who fears/distrusts the shadow F side and yet is possessed by it again and again and unwittingly uses logic to justify its dictates.
    It's just a ride

  4. #134
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Excessive on Thinking is not nearly as problematic as excessively reliance on Feeling because the former in the former case one is able to make sound decisions, in the latter one is not because they are governed by erratic winds of passion.
    Read Descartes' Error.

  5. #135
    heart on fire
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    Excessive on Thinking is not nearly as problematic as excessively reliance on Feeling because the former in the former case one is able to make sound decisions, in the latter one is not because they are governed by erratic winds of passion.
    If it were possible for humans to be purely thinking beings then yes likely you would be right. The problem I was describing is when feeling exists but is either not percieved or not admitted to or it is even feared.

  6. #136
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Uhhm. Let's put it this way.

    We have to separate feelings from Feeling.

    According to MBTI, there are two ways that people decide things -- one, by looking at the faces of the people around them, and two, by reaching for the figures concerning the situation. My original post was concerning the people who yell at those who pick up the figures. It can certainly make good decisions, if one calculates correctly.

    Feeling, because it's explicitly tied to people, can be benevolent, malevolent, greedy, generous, etc, for better or for worse, while Thinking cannot. That's not to say that feelings (not Feelings) cannot affect Ts. They can cause them to turn a blind eye to important variables when making decisions and make their processes rather sloppy. Feeling (with that capital F) in its inferior position to thinking, might warrant them to be actually vindictive rather than just moody, or have an attack of conscience rather than just decide according to 'best outcome.' The difference between the two is doing badly on some math homework because you were distracted and explicitly writing 'FUCK YOU TEACHER' on the problem set.

    Intense Thinking preference is not able to tell whether one's decisions are being affected by feelings because they neglect Feeling, which understands the human element to the decision, that their reasoning may not be sound because they themselves are prone to human error, especially when stressed and upset like the rest of us. Intense Feeling preference is instead unable to tell what is fiesable and what non-Feeling consequences actions have because they can't think outside of that human range.

    Or... something.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  7. #137
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Well-said, Hap.
    eNFJ 4w3 sx/so 468 tritype
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    Dramatic>Sensitive>Serious

  8. #138
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    That is a peripheral remark.... You overlooked that in favor of citing an emotional reaction.
    No I didn't overlook anything, I simply pointed that out intentionally as an example of a thinker using "logic" to justify feeling motives.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Where does it say that the message depicts all feelers?
    I don't read here where she's made the delineation about feelers that you claim she has. She just says F people and F'ers. Since she hasn't, why should I assume she's making any exceptions?


    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    First of all don't be offended by the title I just thought it was funny.

    F people creep me out. I don't understand them. I see making decisions off of your feelings as selfish and irrisponsible. The worst excuse ever, "I felt like it", like that matters. If people justify their actions according to their feelings where is the line that says what you were feeling is wrong. It seems immature. How is putting your feelings on someone else productive to anything? Where is the self control? You cant argue against what someone is feeling and asking someone to take your feelings into account is like asking them to cater unobjectively to you.

    I am not trying to make people mad here I am trying to understand. What makes you all tick?


    Quote Originally Posted by ThatGirl View Post
    Humans and values are flawed and there is nothing to enforce the deffinition of value other than through individual interpretation, again making Fers selfish by design.
    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Intense Thinking preference is not able to tell whether one's decisions are being affected by feelings because they neglect Feeling, which understands the human element to the decision, that their reasoning may not be sound because they themselves are prone to human error, especially when stressed and upset like the rest of us. Intense Feeling preference is instead unable to tell what is fiesable and what non-Feeling consequences actions have because they can't think outside of that human range.

    Or... something.
    Yes, exactly. The two dangerous extremes.

  9. #139
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I probably don't have the time to disassemble BlueWing's statements like I usually have, but I can't resist a little...

    First of all.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Feeling is clearly more responsible for the difficulties in this world. Too much thinking will merely lead the person to avoid being able to recognize the implicit needs of other people.
    I think most people on this forum will be able to recognize how skewed it is to simply pass over that issue as though it were a small one.

    "not recognizing the implicit needs of humanity? No biggy."

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    But they would be able to think clearly and make sound decisions.This could only lead to very few problems, namely some people will just be getting trampled over. It is their fault. They should have just been stronger.
    And most will also agree that this statement has great potential for inhumanity. It has also BlueWing's typical vagueness. We can apparently presume that all people suffering in a Thinking society are to blame for their suffering, due to a lack of strength, which seems unreasonably general/presumptuous. Also, what defines this strength, and what degree of it counts as strong enough, is left a total mystery. Nor is there even a hint at how this happens. The statement is basically empty fluff, it could mean almost anything. It's only clear quality is that it states people who suffer are weak, and it's not a problem if weak people suffer. This is an ethically unagreable statement, and most likely an ignorant one as well.



    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    A Feeler could say that a lack of Feeling leads to a very uncooperative society. That is not true. A good thinker will see when it is time to cooperate and when it is time to fend for oneself by virtue of analysis.
    Analysis based on what imperatives? I agree that a purely Thinking/aFeeling society would not be uncooperative, but that does not satisfy me, since such a society would hardly be anything at all. No Feeling means no drive.

    If you refer to a society that has enough Feeling to posess personal desire, but lacks ethical code or sentimental sensitivty, then you essentially have a society of socipaths. Such a society would not work because sociopaths are cooperative in a parasitic manner. Society could not hold itself together without conduct respectful of emotions and morals.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    If anything supressing Feeling will retrench whimsical acts of cooperation and other banalities Feeling is responsible for.
    What act of cooperation would qualify as whimsical?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Thinkers use logic unwittingly to justify its dictates? Yeah. The dictates of logic is doing what is rational. The bad news for the 'feeler' is that the sympathy card gets removed from the table. Without this, it is difficult to persuade the thinker to do the bidding of a feeler based on simply 'I want you to', or 'I feel like it'.
    First of all, I've already made it as clear as possible that the definition of rationality concerns all Judgement. It does not have an bias toward Thinking.

    Secondly, this paragraph strongly suggests that a world without sympathy would be a better one. Am I correct? Is that what you are suggesting?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Excessive on Thinking is not nearly as problematic as excessively reliance on Feeling because the former in the former case one is able to make sound decisions, in the latter one is not because they are governed by erratic winds of passion.
    But in the former case, invdividuals will be lacking in comprehension of good and bad acts. Such a disability would essentially turn society inert. Now, I suppose a subjective debate from here, as to whether society would be worse if it was filled with a bunch of do-nothings or a bunch of know-nothings.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #140
    Senior Member SquirrelTao's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Feeling, because it's explicitly tied to people, can be benevolent, malevolent, greedy, generous, etc, for better or for worse, while Thinking cannot.
    I agreed with most of what you said, but I see a problem with this statement, namely that thinking is not done in a vacuum and has consequences. It may not be directly concerned with people, but it will still indirectly affect people.

    Now, having pointed that out, I have only ever met one person in my whole life who really seemed close to being a pure thinker, and she was one of the coolest people I have ever known. Because ironically, she had so much acceptance of other people, that she was a good influence on them!

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