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  1. #51
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Oh yes, certaintly when I say that 2+2=4 it has something to do with my feelings or my preferrences...
    Well, it is related to the shared subjective preferences of people in general. 2+2=4, but only assuming that you are using standard mathematical notation, the decimal system, and agree on how many objects exist in the situation. In the quaternary base, 2+2=10. In the ternary, 2+2=11. So I have to assume subjectively that you are using a base 10 system in order to understand your statement.

    And my car is white...it is white this morning when I just woke up ..it was white last night at 7 pm when I havent slept for 30 hours..and so on..and any person who sees clearly and is not color-blind will also recognize it as white..regardless of what their personal values or current feelings are..
    Saying that your car is "white" is a subjective statement based upon how you and most people perceive "color". It could be argued that color doesn't actually exist, and is simply the mechanism by which our minds perceive that an object reflects or doesn't reflect particles corresponding to certain bands of the electromagnetic spectrum. To a being that perceived the electromagnetic spectrum differently, "white" would have no meaning outside of that.

    Saying that an object is white implies that you accept your perception of color as an exact interpretation of the particles being reflected. You can only validly say that an object appears to be white, not that it is, because that would imply that white existed as an independent entity outside of your perception of it.

    The point is, anything that can be perceived by a human mind inherently has a subjective element. "Objective" elements are simply the ones that we all agree upon and perceive the existence of.

  2. #52
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Indeed the car being white is rendered subjective in a sense that the perception is immanent within the subject, although the objectivity in this case consists in us all sharing this same perception. Same applies for the mathematical example. That is, we all envision the same system when we do mathematics.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  3. #53
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    This was my question to you in the last thread concerning the subject...

    How do you cope with this being your third or fourth function when the world forces you too often to make impersonal judgments...
    I value 'thinking' for its ability to distinguish between the personal and impersonal. I am convinced that to fully understand something, one must understand whatever is its opposite. There is an interesting interplay between objectivity and empathy. There is a wide variety of types of sympathy/empathy. In order to avoid any personal projection, empathy that is most accurate requires distance and impersonal judgment calls on one level. If you want to actually get a sense of another person, you must let go of yourself first. To enter their subjective experience requires letting go of personal bias. I find that objectivity is the conduit that connects personal experience. For that reason i value it as highly as is possible. For me love is not blind. It is insight. You cannot love what you cannot know. Objectivity is necessary to accurately know, and it is therefore necessary to fully love.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #54
    Member Vicki's Avatar
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    Well, I'm INFP but my mom is INTJ. (she'll say something crude and I'll say, "*scoff* you TJ!" and she'll say, "FP..". I love her a lot, and I watch how she handles things so I learn some T and J into me.
    plus, I'm very introspective, and I'm only 15.

    I admire how Ts calmly deal with things.. unlike me, I get mad quickly, or put on emotional displays, if my brother's don't leave me alone.
    If I'm around a T I'm usually pretty calm, so I say..
    WHAT WOULD I DO WITHOUT A T!?

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    . And INFPs don't tend to tell you when the friendship is reaching the breaking point; they just blow up over something small one day and storm out of the room.
    I could not disagree more with this statement. I never end a friendship (or relationship with a relative) without telling the other person in no uncertain terms why and giving them a chance and a second chance to give me what I am not getting from them, be it respect, good boundaries or whatever.

    The problem I have seen is that people don't take me seriously when I tell them "Hey, we have a real problem and this is what it is." I think part of that problem is my quiet off line nature leads some people into believing I am weak and that I won't hold to my word if I say that there will be consequenses for actions.

    Maybe an immature INFP would blow up one day and storm out over something small but I don't believe a mature one would.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    I agree that a mature INFP wouldn't do that, as in they identified that the infp trait of staying quiet to avoid conflict was devalueing them as an individual, and had started to speak out. It takes realising how bad staying quiet is to get past that enough to start telling someone what the issues are.

    As an immature infp that is how I behaved, repressing and not talking about it until eventually I just blew up and off. I am more outspoken about things now, and will attempt to speak of these things before they reach that point, but like you said, it's a chance system, and once the line gets crossed especially after a talk, then the chance is blown and the cut off comes.

    I got to say though, I very much identified with most if not all of finelines posts.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  7. #57
    Senior Member Gabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Suppose you've been friends with an NFP for 2 years. Then you get to the point where you're forced to part company for a year. Could it very easily be the case that you will be coming back to a very different person then you've known earlier?

    Simply because their feelings about you changed for a reason that you don't understand?
    all you give us hear is that some hypothetical person has changed. So what if they're a different person, that's not inherently bad. They might be becoming a phoney, like you assume. Or they might be growing up (unlike you).

  8. #58
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    i probably don't speak for the majority here, but logic has always been my best friend. i've always tried to be as logical as i possibly could, it's just that when these things involve people, i tend to choose their feelings over harsh, cold, pros and cons logic. it's not to say that i'm not harsh/blunt at times though, i have a developed T side too. i ask a lot of questions and sometimes an F could think that i'm trying to undermine their authority. i try to balance the T and F out. my F is dominant, but that's OK. itry to be gentle, caring etc. but still strive for objective truth and logic.

  9. #59
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    Well, right now, I don't deal with it very well! When someone asks me to make a quick, yet final decision based on 1 or 2 isolated facts, I fail every time. This is something I have to work on.

    As an FP, I need a lot more context, a lot more "stuff" before the best decision becomes clear. But that doesn't mean I can't make decisions. Sometimes I make awesome decisions.

    (Just don't ask me how I arrived at them. )
    There is no way to happiness; happiness is the way. - Anonymous

    The brick walls are there for the other people. - Randy Pausch

  10. #60
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Here's my bottom line which simplifies the whole matter much more than many are doing here. And it echoes Brandon's simple statement of matter-of-fact acceptance.

    People change. Things change. Places change. It's a guarantee that if you love you'll get hurt somewhere down the line. And the more you love, the more it will hurt. It goes with the package of opening your heart. To anything. Refuse to open your heart and it's probable that you will miss many moments of joy.

    The loss a beloved pet is often our first lesson in love and loss.

    You can intellectualize the heck out of it but it won't change the hurt.

    I think it's one of life's lessons and is unavoidable that at some point you are going to have to deal with feelings that seem overwhelming. So the sooner you accept that and learn how to live well with grief the better your life will be.

    If you are fortunate enough to live for many decades you will see loss and betrayal and have your trust and certainty shaken many times. I wish that weren't true for our hearts' sake. And I know that the better one accepts that, the better their quality of life.

    By "accept" I don't mean expecting it. I don't mean approving of it. I don't mean that it's okay in the scheme of things. It just IS.

    In today's parlance, "It sucks." And the Eagles put the solution succinctly when they sang, "Get Over It."

    You can't think your way out of grief, I believe. You need to deal with the feelings in order to heal or you'll have to keep experiencing them until - whenever they go away.

    This is why you see some old folks who seem bitter, judgemental and angry. They didn't do their homework. They're probably carrying quite a bit of crap around with them by now. Held hostage by their own feelings.

    A choice - carry anger and feelings of hurt or carry joy that there was good there. And LEARN from it.

    It's simple.

    But difficult to learn. Takes practice and you will have many opportunities to practice.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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