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  1. #1
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
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    Default Are INFJs more idealistic than INFPs?

    I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

    -Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
    -Percievers are bored by it

    -Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
    -Percievers are spontaneous

    -Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
    -Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily

    Therefore I believe Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers, and that INFJs are the idealists.

    Two of the biggest idealists were INFJs. Mahatma Gandhi and (no offense) Adolf Hitler.
    they were obsessed with planning their ideal world.
    My dad is an INFJ, too. He's also a major idealist.

    INFJs, INFPs, what do you guys think?
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    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  2. #2
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    But technically an INFJ is a perceiver dominant. If we let go of defining the INFJ based on their aux function Fe - which can be greatly altered by strong Ni, then we see that the INFP is the judging dominant individual. It's about looking internally and not externally.

    I've known both Ni and Fi doms well, and would have a hard time answering the question in the OP. Both can be extremely idealistic, and it would be difficult for me to define which is moreso.

    I'm quite different from your descriptions because as an introvert, most of my experience is internal, so I don't relate to the external world in such absolute ways. I'm the least pissed off of almost anyone I know when plans change because 1. I have already made so many internal contingency plans that it's difficult to actually 'change' my plans. If I'm focused on a plan, then it is in principle and very fluid, so that it can be reapplied into reality a thousand different ways. 2. If I'm not that invested in a plan, then I am just as likely as the next guy to space it off. I try to be kind when others forget or have last minute changes because I know I will be on both sides of that coin.

    Perhaps Fe or Te-doms care more about their plans being seen to fruition in reality, because realize a INFJ is far, far, far more about Ni than they will ever be about Fe. I still don't think Hitler was an INFJ. He was completely blank externally according to Jung. He doesn't sound like a Feeler, who are often known by some expressivity in their faces - especially Fe. I know he was good at hosting, but that is very structured, and not necessarily Fe. Te can be effective as a host if it learns all the details and procedures required to accomplish the task. How can anyone look at his face and think "Feeler"? Read the description of the Te-dom by Jung and they are often on a idealist mission to accomplish in the world by hook or by crook.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jung
    "Dr. Jung said that he had closely observed Hitler at his meeting with Mussolini in Berlin.
    ' I was only a few yards away from the two men and could study them well. In comparison with Mussolini, Hitler made upon me the impression of a sort of scaffolding of wood covered with cloth, an automaton with a mask, like a robot or a mask of a robot. During the whole performance he never laughed ; it was as though he were in a bad humor, sulking. He showed no human sign."
    Slim pickins for any Fe whatsoever in that description.

    Jung's description of Te is much more morally invested than the MBTI chatter about types.
    Quote Originally Posted by jung
    In accordance with his definition, we must picture a, man whose constant aim -- in so far, of course, as he is a [p. 435] pure type -- is to bring his total life-activities into relation with intellectual conclusions, which in the last resort are always orientated by objective data, whether objective facts or generally valid ideas. This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively. Just as the extraverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for its own good, must his entourage also obey it, since the man who refuses to obey is wrong -- he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must, under all circumstances, be realized; for in his eyes it is the purest conceivable formulation of objective reality, and, therefore, must also be generally valid truth, quite indispensable for the salvation of man. This is not from any great love for his neighbour, but from a higher standpoint of justice and truth. Everything in his own nature that appears to invalidate this formula is mere imperfection, an accidental miss-fire, something to be eliminated on the next occasion, or, in the event of further failure, then clearly a sickness.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  3. #3
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    To get back to your question about the greater idealist: INFP or INFJ, it is an apple and oranges comparison. It is likely better to explore the nature of the two different sorts of idealism rather than trying to measure which is greater.

    I would suggest that the INFP idealism is more morally and personally invested. It holds a few underlying universal principles, but sees each individual as interpreting these into their own context. This tends to be the best way to create equanimity because an INFP will not reconcile the contrast between their own ideals with that of another, so they are more likely to create clear boundaries between the individual. They can understand a great deal of complexity at the individual level as well. My impression is that the specific applications of the internal principles holds more importance for the INFP, so these individual boundaries are necessary because the external application of the ideals requires a certain individual privacy to keep intact. It's like viewing a spider web in the early morning dew with a clear, sparkling dew drop on each intersection of the web. Separate, equal, each clearly marked and defined. PErhaps INFP idealism is more specific and private.

    INFJ idealism is more abstract and is concerned with the nature of reality and how that could relate to all individuals. The Ni-dom aspect can make an INFJ respectful of the personal boundaries, and more likely to accept a wider variety of social systems in terms of a relative morality. I don't think the external application of the ideal is significant in the same way, so an INFJ is more likely to alter their own behavior and needs to fit within a system to create external peace. There can be much more uncertainty inwardly with the Ni-Ti loop in determining ideals, so the ones that are achieved come at great cost and much work. This idealism is more like viewing a tree swaying in the wind. There is one core underlying truth, but it can branch off into a thousand directions and be altered based on context. INFJ idealism is more nebulous and attempts to define the nature of reality.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
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  4. #4
    Senior Member misfortuneteller's Avatar
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    INFJ's are more idealistic because of Ni paired with Fe. INFP's fit the mold of a dreamer rather than an idealist.

  5. #5
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

    -Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
    -Percievers are bored by it
    Routine has nothing to do with idealism

    -Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
    -Percievers are spontaneous
    Nothing to do with idealism.

    -Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
    -Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily]
    Not necessarily true. Ps can be just as stubborn in their opinions as Js, if not more so. Ps are more open to possibilities but once they decide something it is just as final.

    Both are idealistic, but exhibit in different ways. NFJs are more proactive (and fit the "mentor" archetype) and NFPs are more informative (and fit the "advocate" archetype). Js are more capable of enacting their vision but this has nothing to do with level of idealism. People regularly assume because I'm laid-back that I don't have strong views.

    Unless you're working with an esoteric definition of idealism, I think you're on the wrong track.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  6. #6
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Not necessarily true. Ps can be just as stubborn in their opinions as Js, if not more so. Ps are more open to possibilities but once they decide something it is just as final.
    "Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.

    Both are idealistic, but exhibit in different ways. NFJs are more proactive (and fit the "mentor" archetype) and NFPs are more informative (and fit the "advocate" archetype). Js are more capable of enacting their vision but this has nothing to do with level of idealism. People regularly assume because I'm laid-back that I don't have strong views.
    But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
    MBTI:
    Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral
    Sins: Pride > Sloth > Gluttony > Wrath > Greed > Lust > Envy

    "Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  7. #7
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    "Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.
    And how do INFJs shape their ideals in the first place? Did they just spring out of a hole in the ground, fully formed? You know, INFPs form their ideals and the apply them to their decisions too.

    You seem to have a disdain for actually listening to the arguments and considering the implications. Decisiveness is not everything. It means speedy action not necessarily right action. I also don't think you're giving INFJs much credit either. They actually try to think things through and try to avoid making knee jerk reactions to everything. That would be pretty ignorant and foolish. Are you suggesting they're all fundamentalists?

    Idealism is passionate, but not necessarily reckless and foolhardy.

    But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
    Since when has idealism had anything to do with practicality or accomplishment? If anything it's the opposite.

    Take a look at the definition:

    i·de·al·ism (ī-dē′ə-lĭz′əm)
    n.
    1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal and often impractical form.
    2. Pursuit of one's ideals, often without regard to practical ends.
    3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
    4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte
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  8. #8
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And how do INFJs shape their ideals in the first place? Did they just spring out of a hole in the ground, fully formed? You know, INFPs form their ideals and the apply them to their decisions too.
    Not in the way INFJs do. Two of the biggest idealists (Gandhi and Hitler) were INFJs, not INFPs. These 2 people changed the world just for the sake of turning their ideals into reality. That was their decision.

    You seem to have a disdain for actually listening to the arguments and considering the implications. Decisiveness is not everything. It means speedy action not necessarily right action. I also don't think you're giving INFJs much credit either. They actually try to think things through and try to avoid making knee jerk reactions to everything. That would be pretty ignorant and foolish. Are you suggesting they're all fundamentalists?

    Idealism is passionate, but not necessarily reckless and foolhardy.
    Wrong. According to the famous psychologist Sigmund Freud (he worked with Carl Jung), one's personality is formed when one is 5 years old.
    At least at that age, one could start to form ideals. If you don't stick to your ideals, they're not ideals. It's as simple as that.
    I'm not saying INFPs are not idealistic, but I'm saying that INFJs are more idealistic, for that reason.

    Since when has idealism had anything to do with practicality or accomplishment? If anything it's the opposite.
    If you don't try to accomplish your ideals, you apparently don't want it that bad, unless you're lazy or incompetent. Any normal human being would try to accomplish his ideals if the ideals are strong.

    1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal and often impractical form.
    Was it practical for Hitler to kill the jews? No, but he accomplished it anyway.

    2. Pursuit of one's ideals, often without regard to practical ends.
    No problem here, since it suits an INFJ perfectly.

    3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
    Hitler was a politician, later dictator, and Gandhi was a politician as well, and a revolutionary. Politics is absolutely a form of art.

    4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.
    Just because it has the word "percieved" in it, doesn't mean anything.
    And no. That's just the definition of Philosophy and Theory. Idealism can't be generalized like that because it's an own individual's opinion.
    Every Type is idealistic to a degree, but the INFJ is the most idealistic type.

    By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
    When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
    When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
    You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.
    MBTI:
    Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral
    Sins: Pride > Sloth > Gluttony > Wrath > Greed > Lust > Envy

    "Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  9. #9
    Member Evastover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post

    By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
    When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
    When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
    You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.

    Idealism, using your definition as the strength of one's values, is something which is not directly caused by type or function. It is an individual thing thing outside of the realm of MBTI. I'm sure you could find statistic correalations in regards to idealism and type, but the strength of one's values is not determined by type.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Studmuffin23's Avatar
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    I'm highly skeptical of the idea of an "idealistic personality".

    Throughout history, ideals have motivated enormous populations of people (consisting of all personality types) to take action for change, from the rise of Buddhism to the Russian revolution. They felt inspired by a concept that gave them an almost religious-like hope for the future, which people of any MBTI type are capable of experiencing. It's just human nature. Plain and simple.

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