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[NF] Are INFJs more idealistic than INFPs?

RandomINTP

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I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

-Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
-Percievers are bored by it

-Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
-Percievers are spontaneous

-Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
-Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily

Therefore I believe Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers, and that INFJs are the idealists.

Two of the biggest idealists were INFJs. Mahatma Gandhi and (no offense) Adolf Hitler.
they were obsessed with planning their ideal world.
My dad is an INFJ, too. He's also a major idealist.

INFJs, INFPs, what do you guys think?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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But technically an INFJ is a perceiver dominant. If we let go of defining the INFJ based on their aux function Fe - which can be greatly altered by strong Ni, then we see that the INFP is the judging dominant individual. It's about looking internally and not externally.

I've known both Ni and Fi doms well, and would have a hard time answering the question in the OP. Both can be extremely idealistic, and it would be difficult for me to define which is moreso.

I'm quite different from your descriptions because as an introvert, most of my experience is internal, so I don't relate to the external world in such absolute ways. I'm the least pissed off of almost anyone I know when plans change because 1. I have already made so many internal contingency plans that it's difficult to actually 'change' my plans. If I'm focused on a plan, then it is in principle and very fluid, so that it can be reapplied into reality a thousand different ways. 2. If I'm not that invested in a plan, then I am just as likely as the next guy to space it off. I try to be kind when others forget or have last minute changes because I know I will be on both sides of that coin.

Perhaps Fe or Te-doms care more about their plans being seen to fruition in reality, because realize a INFJ is far, far, far more about Ni than they will ever be about Fe. I still don't think Hitler was an INFJ. He was completely blank externally according to Jung. He doesn't sound like a Feeler, who are often known by some expressivity in their faces - especially Fe. I know he was good at hosting, but that is very structured, and not necessarily Fe. Te can be effective as a host if it learns all the details and procedures required to accomplish the task. How can anyone look at his face and think "Feeler"? Read the description of the Te-dom by Jung and they are often on a idealist mission to accomplish in the world by hook or by crook.
Jung said:
"Dr. Jung said that he had closely observed Hitler at his meeting with Mussolini in Berlin.
' I was only a few yards away from the two men and could study them well. In comparison with Mussolini, Hitler made upon me the impression of a sort of scaffolding of wood covered with cloth, an automaton with a mask, like a robot or a mask of a robot. During the whole performance he never laughed ; it was as though he were in a bad humor, sulking. He showed no human sign."
Slim pickins for any Fe whatsoever in that description.

Jung's description of Te is much more morally invested than the MBTI chatter about types.
jung said:
In accordance with his definition, we must picture a, man whose constant aim -- in so far, of course, as he is a [p. 435] pure type -- is to bring his total life-activities into relation with intellectual conclusions, which in the last resort are always orientated by objective data, whether objective facts or generally valid ideas. This type of man gives the deciding voice-not merely for himself alone but also on behalf of his entourage-either to the actual objective reality or to its objectively orientated, intellectual formula. By this formula are good and evil measured, and beauty and ugliness determined. All is right that corresponds with this formula; all is wrong that contradicts it; and everything that is neutral to it is purely accidental. Because this formula seems to correspond with the meaning of the world, it also becomes a world-law whose realization must be achieved at all times and seasons, both individually and collectively. Just as the extraverted thinking type subordinates himself to his formula, so, for its own good, must his entourage also obey it, since the man who refuses to obey is wrong -- he is resisting the world-law, and is, therefore, unreasonable, immoral, and without a conscience. His moral code forbids him to tolerate exceptions; his ideal must, under all circumstances, be realized; for in his eyes it is the purest conceivable formulation of objective reality, and, therefore, must also be generally valid truth, quite indispensable for the salvation of man. This is not from any great love for his neighbour, but from a higher standpoint of justice and truth. Everything in his own nature that appears to invalidate this formula is mere imperfection, an accidental miss-fire, something to be eliminated on the next occasion, or, in the event of further failure, then clearly a sickness.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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To get back to your question about the greater idealist: INFP or INFJ, it is an apple and oranges comparison. It is likely better to explore the nature of the two different sorts of idealism rather than trying to measure which is greater.

I would suggest that the INFP idealism is more morally and personally invested. It holds a few underlying universal principles, but sees each individual as interpreting these into their own context. This tends to be the best way to create equanimity because an INFP will not reconcile the contrast between their own ideals with that of another, so they are more likely to create clear boundaries between the individual. They can understand a great deal of complexity at the individual level as well. My impression is that the specific applications of the internal principles holds more importance for the INFP, so these individual boundaries are necessary because the external application of the ideals requires a certain individual privacy to keep intact. It's like viewing a spider web in the early morning dew with a clear, sparkling dew drop on each intersection of the web. Separate, equal, each clearly marked and defined. PErhaps INFP idealism is more specific and private.

INFJ idealism is more abstract and is concerned with the nature of reality and how that could relate to all individuals. The Ni-dom aspect can make an INFJ respectful of the personal boundaries, and more likely to accept a wider variety of social systems in terms of a relative morality. I don't think the external application of the ideal is significant in the same way, so an INFJ is more likely to alter their own behavior and needs to fit within a system to create external peace. There can be much more uncertainty inwardly with the Ni-Ti loop in determining ideals, so the ones that are achieved come at great cost and much work. This idealism is more like viewing a tree swaying in the wind. There is one core underlying truth, but it can branch off into a thousand directions and be altered based on context. INFJ idealism is more nebulous and attempts to define the nature of reality.
 

misfortuneteller

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INFJ's are more idealistic because of Ni paired with Fe. INFP's fit the mold of a dreamer rather than an idealist.
 

Southern Kross

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I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

-Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
-Percievers are bored by it
Routine has nothing to do with idealism

-Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
-Percievers are spontaneous
Nothing to do with idealism.

-Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
-Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily]
Not necessarily true. Ps can be just as stubborn in their opinions as Js, if not more so. Ps are more open to possibilities but once they decide something it is just as final.

Both are idealistic, but exhibit in different ways. NFJs are more proactive (and fit the "mentor" archetype) and NFPs are more informative (and fit the "advocate" archetype). Js are more capable of enacting their vision but this has nothing to do with level of idealism. People regularly assume because I'm laid-back that I don't have strong views.

Unless you're working with an esoteric definition of idealism, I think you're on the wrong track.
 

RandomINTP

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Not necessarily true. Ps can be just as stubborn in their opinions as Js, if not more so. Ps are more open to possibilities but once they decide something it is just as final.
"Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.

Both are idealistic, but exhibit in different ways. NFJs are more proactive (and fit the "mentor" archetype) and NFPs are more informative (and fit the "advocate" archetype). Js are more capable of enacting their vision but this has nothing to do with level of idealism. People regularly assume because I'm laid-back that I don't have strong views.
But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
 

Southern Kross

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"Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.
And how do INFJs shape their ideals in the first place? Did they just spring out of a hole in the ground, fully formed? You know, INFPs form their ideals and the apply them to their decisions too. :rolleyes:

You seem to have a disdain for actually listening to the arguments and considering the implications. Decisiveness is not everything. It means speedy action not necessarily right action. I also don't think you're giving INFJs much credit either. They actually try to think things through and try to avoid making knee jerk reactions to everything. That would be pretty ignorant and foolish. Are you suggesting they're all fundamentalists?

Idealism is passionate, but not necessarily reckless and foolhardy.

But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
Since when has idealism had anything to do with practicality or accomplishment? If anything it's the opposite.

Take a look at the definition:

i·de·al·ism (ī-dē′ə-lĭz′əm)
n.
1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal and often impractical form.
2. Pursuit of one's ideals, often without regard to practical ends.
3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.
 

RandomINTP

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And how do INFJs shape their ideals in the first place? Did they just spring out of a hole in the ground, fully formed? You know, INFPs form their ideals and the apply them to their decisions too. :rolleyes:
Not in the way INFJs do. Two of the biggest idealists (Gandhi and Hitler) were INFJs, not INFPs. These 2 people changed the world just for the sake of turning their ideals into reality. That was their decision.

You seem to have a disdain for actually listening to the arguments and considering the implications. Decisiveness is not everything. It means speedy action not necessarily right action. I also don't think you're giving INFJs much credit either. They actually try to think things through and try to avoid making knee jerk reactions to everything. That would be pretty ignorant and foolish. Are you suggesting they're all fundamentalists?

Idealism is passionate, but not necessarily reckless and foolhardy.
Wrong. According to the famous psychologist Sigmund Freud (he worked with Carl Jung), one's personality is formed when one is 5 years old.
At least at that age, one could start to form ideals. If you don't stick to your ideals, they're not ideals. It's as simple as that.
I'm not saying INFPs are not idealistic, but I'm saying that INFJs are more idealistic, for that reason.

Since when has idealism had anything to do with practicality or accomplishment? If anything it's the opposite.
If you don't try to accomplish your ideals, you apparently don't want it that bad, unless you're lazy or incompetent. Any normal human being would try to accomplish his ideals if the ideals are strong.

1. The act or practice of envisioning things in an ideal and often impractical form.
Was it practical for Hitler to kill the jews? No, but he accomplished it anyway.

2. Pursuit of one's ideals, often without regard to practical ends.
No problem here, since it suits an INFJ perfectly.

3. Idealized treatment of a subject in literature or art.
Hitler was a politician, later dictator, and Gandhi was a politician as well, and a revolutionary. Politics is absolutely a form of art.

4. Philosophy The theory that the object of external perception, in itself or as perceived, consists of ideas.
Just because it has the word "percieved" in it, doesn't mean anything.
And no. That's just the definition of Philosophy and Theory. Idealism can't be generalized like that because it's an own individual's opinion.
Every Type is idealistic to a degree, but the INFJ is the most idealistic type.

By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.
 

Evastover

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By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.


Idealism, using your definition as the strength of one's values, is something which is not directly caused by type or function. It is an individual thing thing outside of the realm of MBTI. I'm sure you could find statistic correalations in regards to idealism and type, but the strength of one's values is not determined by type.
 

Studmuffin23

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I'm highly skeptical of the idea of an "idealistic personality".

Throughout history, ideals have motivated enormous populations of people (consisting of all personality types) to take action for change, from the rise of Buddhism to the Russian revolution. They felt inspired by a concept that gave them an almost religious-like hope for the future, which people of any MBTI type are capable of experiencing. It's just human nature. Plain and simple.
 

Southern Kross

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Not in the way INFJs do. Two of the biggest idealists (Gandhi and Hitler) were INFJs, not INFPs. These 2 people changed the world just for the sake of turning their ideals into reality. That was their decision.
You are choosing to define idealism as INFJness. If you do that then INFJs will indeed better exemplify that definition. I'm not interested in your circular reasoning.

Wrong. According to the famous psychologist Sigmund Freud (he worked with Carl Jung), one's personality is formed when one is 5 years old.
At least at that age, one could start to form ideals. If you don't stick to your ideals, they're not ideals. It's as simple as that.
I'm not saying INFPs are not idealistic, but I'm saying that INFJs are more idealistic, for that reason.
And I didn't say INFPs are prone to changing their ideals. I actually said the opposite. How is this disproving my argument?

If you don't try to accomplish your ideals, you apparently don't want it that bad, unless you're lazy or incompetent. Any normal human being would try to accomplish his ideals if the ideals are strong.
There is more than one way to pursue one's ideals, and more than one way to define success in that pursuit.

Was it practical for Hitler to kill the jews? No, but he accomplished it anyway.
Well whoop-de-do and congrats to him, I guess. :huh:

I suppose in this twisted view of the world, if one isn't slaughtering people efficiently enough, you could say it's because they're not enough of an idealist. I seriously wonder if you're confusing idealism with fundamentalism.

No problem here, since it suits an INFJ perfectly.
Circular reasoning yet again. You are yet to prove that it applies to INFJs MORE than INFPs.

Hitler was a politician, later dictator, and Gandhi was a politician as well, and a revolutionary. Politics is absolutely a form of art.
Just because it has the word "percieved" in it, doesn't mean anything.
And no. That's just the definition of Philosophy and Theory. Idealism can't be generalized like that because it's an own individual's opinion.
Every Type is idealistic to a degree, but the INFJ is the most idealistic type.
Are you trolling? Because all this is make less and less sense with every moment.

By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.
Where do you establish the claim that Js are harder to manipulate than Ps?
Where have you proven Js are more stubborn than Ps?
Where is the evidence that stubbornness = idealism?
 

Kullervo

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I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

-Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
-Percievers are bored by it

I look at this through a Fi vs Fe lens:

Fe idealists tend to project their visions outward, and imagine creating an ideal society. Fi users wish to create an idealised identity, or personal life. Idealism literally can be anything; it is really the pursuit of an ideal and the pursuit may well stay in one's imagination. Your "dreamy" INFP may have far richer, more complex visions than the "mentor" INFJ who has to realise their vision. Which of the two types is more idealistic?

Something I do like about your take, though, is that you've acknowledged that idealism isn't directional. Idealists don't have to believe the same things to share personality traits (as Ghandi and Hitler aptly prove).

-Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
-Percievers are spontaneous

Irrelevant. What makes an idealist an idealist is their ideals, or thoughts.

-Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
-Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily

Try crossing a Fi user's morals.
 

RandomINTP

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Idealism, using your definition as the strength of one's values, is something which is not directly caused by type or function. It is an individual thing thing outside of the realm of MBTI. I'm sure you could find statistic correalations in regards to idealism and type, but the strength of one's values is not determined by type.

Having a bunch of ideas in your head isn't idealism. I have a bunch of ideas im my head, too. According to what [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] said, I would be just as idealistic. The difference is: I know I can't accomplish my ideals and I don't have the desire to do so (except for becoming a lawyer). An INFJ, on the other hand, DOES. They don't care if they can't accomplish their ideals. They do all in their power to do it anyway, because they have the desire to do so.
If desire was irrelevant, everybody would be an idealist for every little thing they want. For example, if there's a kid that considers getting an ice cream for whatever reason, he would be an idealist just because he wants an ice cream, or? NO. This kid's not an idealist.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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"Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.
I think being excessively careful is an expression of idealism. Anyone deeply invested in truth, morality, and ethics will be quite careful in decision making.


But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
Why does an ideal have to 'accomplish something'? Read up of Buddhism and you'll find tremendously deep idealism in the concept of peace and acceptance. There is idealism that is about finding the beauty beneath the pain, of being able to see the truth in the shadows of our assumptions. By becoming quiet, observing, and open, we can see the idealism that is already there and we no longer have to force ourselves or our wills onto a reality without first understanding it.
 

OrangeAppled

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Having a bunch of ideas in your head isn't idealism. I have a bunch of ideas im my head, too. According to what [MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] said, I would be just as idealistic. The difference is: I know I can't accomplish my ideals and I don't have the desire to do so (except for becoming a lawyer). An INFJ, on the other hand, DOES. They don't care if they can't accomplish their ideals. They do all in their power to do it anyway, because they have the desire to do so.
If desire was irrelevant, everybody would be an idealist for every little thing they want. For example, if there's a kid that considers getting an ice cream for whatever reason, he would be an idealist just because he wants an ice cream, or? NO. This kid's not an idealist.

INFPs have auxiliary Ne, which is far from inactive, and Fi responds strongly in violation to ideals. The individual may be less proactive, but they may be highly reactive, whether in response to a violation of an ideal (which happens a lot if the ideals are very high) or possibilties they see emerging to realize an ideal.

In short, theyre just less strategic, but far more exploratory (involving action), which in some ways is MORE idealistic because its thinking you can realize an ideal without a plan, but just stumbling across it as you mess around in life.
 

RandomINTP

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INFPs have auxiliary Ne, which is far from inactive, and Fi responds strongly in violation to ideals. The individual may be less proactive, but they may be highly reactive, whether in response to a violation of an ideal (which happens a lot if the ideals are very high) or possibilties they see emerging to realize an ideal.

In short, theyre just less strategic, but far more exploratory (involving action), which in some ways is MORE idealistic because its thinking you can realize an ideal without a plan, but just stumbling across it as you mess around in life.

But I always got this feeling that Js have this desire to accomplish their ideals, no matter what.
In other words, the INFJ's ideals are higher priority to INFJs than INFPs' ideals to INFPs.
 

RandomINTP

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I think being excessively careful is an expression of idealism. Anyone deeply invested in truth, morality, and ethics will be quite careful in decision making.
If you're a realist, you're not that much of an idealist. realists see the world as it is, and Idealists imagine the world as it should be (according to them).

Why does an ideal have to 'accomplish something'? Read up of Buddhism and you'll find tremendously deep idealism in the concept of peace and acceptance. There is idealism that is about finding the beauty beneath the pain, of being able to see the truth in the shadows of our assumptions. By becoming quiet, observing, and open, we can see the idealism that is already there and we no longer have to force ourselves or our wills onto a reality without first understanding it.
Not just simply "something". Idealists want to accomplish their ideals. If peace is an ideal, they will try to achieve it, and it isn't hard. I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.
 

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I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.

Do you see the errors in reasoning you are making throughout this thread?

Read this: Reasoning, and What It Is To Be Rational - it's quite good, then come back, take a look at the thread again and see if you can spot places where your arguments are not supported.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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If you're a realist, you're not that much of an idealist. realists see the world as it is, and Idealists imagine the world as it should be (according to them).
Imagination does not require action. It is possible to view the world through such rose-colored, unrealistic lens that no activism is needed. I'm not suggesting that is the case with either type, but I think you have constrained your concept of idealism to fit the foregone conclusion that a "J" is more idealistic. If idealism = acting upon the world then an extroverted Judging function would be more likely to do this than Ji in the lowest resolution set of assumptions.

Not just simply "something". Idealists want to accomplish their ideals. If peace is an ideal, they will try to achieve it, and it isn't hard. I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.
You are thinking more of activism than idealism. While there is a relationship between the two, they are not synonymous.

i'm curious that your initial assumption seems quite important to you. Is there a reason that one conclusion is more important to you than the other? Are you thinking about specific people in your life and desire that what you see in their idealism maps universally? However this question can be answered, the main point I care to make is that it is enormously more complex than to assume that Je is more idealistic than Ji because idealism requires acting upon the external world. There are many assumptions in that statement that are not that easily provable.
 
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