User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 24

  1. #11
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    Not in the way INFJs do. Two of the biggest idealists (Gandhi and Hitler) were INFJs, not INFPs. These 2 people changed the world just for the sake of turning their ideals into reality. That was their decision.
    You are choosing to define idealism as INFJness. If you do that then INFJs will indeed better exemplify that definition. I'm not interested in your circular reasoning.

    Wrong. According to the famous psychologist Sigmund Freud (he worked with Carl Jung), one's personality is formed when one is 5 years old.
    At least at that age, one could start to form ideals. If you don't stick to your ideals, they're not ideals. It's as simple as that.
    I'm not saying INFPs are not idealistic, but I'm saying that INFJs are more idealistic, for that reason.
    And I didn't say INFPs are prone to changing their ideals. I actually said the opposite. How is this disproving my argument?

    If you don't try to accomplish your ideals, you apparently don't want it that bad, unless you're lazy or incompetent. Any normal human being would try to accomplish his ideals if the ideals are strong.
    There is more than one way to pursue one's ideals, and more than one way to define success in that pursuit.

    Was it practical for Hitler to kill the jews? No, but he accomplished it anyway.
    Well whoop-de-do and congrats to him, I guess.

    I suppose in this twisted view of the world, if one isn't slaughtering people efficiently enough, you could say it's because they're not enough of an idealist. I seriously wonder if you're confusing idealism with fundamentalism.

    No problem here, since it suits an INFJ perfectly.
    Circular reasoning yet again. You are yet to prove that it applies to INFJs MORE than INFPs.

    Hitler was a politician, later dictator, and Gandhi was a politician as well, and a revolutionary. Politics is absolutely a form of art.
    Just because it has the word "percieved" in it, doesn't mean anything.
    And no. That's just the definition of Philosophy and Theory. Idealism can't be generalized like that because it's an own individual's opinion.
    Every Type is idealistic to a degree, but the INFJ is the most idealistic type.
    Are you trolling? Because all this is make less and less sense with every moment.

    By the way: Percievers are easier to manipulate than Judgers, and you know why. In case not, I'll explain.
    When someone is hard to manipulate, that someone is stubborn.
    When someone is stubborn, that someone is more idealistic.
    You know what that means. Judgers are more idealistic than Percievers.
    Where do you establish the claim that Js are harder to manipulate than Ps?
    Where have you proven Js are more stubborn than Ps?
    Where is the evidence that stubbornness = idealism?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #12
    Permabanned
    Join Date
    May 2014
    MBTI
    N/A
    Socionics
    EIE Ni
    Posts
    3,380

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    I deduced that INFJs are more idealistic for these reasons:

    -Judgers stick to routine (their routine, not necessarily the one of society)
    -Percievers are bored by it
    I look at this through a Fi vs Fe lens:

    Fe idealists tend to project their visions outward, and imagine creating an ideal society. Fi users wish to create an idealised identity, or personal life. Idealism literally can be anything; it is really the pursuit of an ideal and the pursuit may well stay in one's imagination. Your "dreamy" INFP may have far richer, more complex visions than the "mentor" INFJ who has to realise their vision. Which of the two types is more idealistic?

    Something I do like about your take, though, is that you've acknowledged that idealism isn't directional. Idealists don't have to believe the same things to share personality traits (as Ghandi and Hitler aptly prove).

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    -Judgers plan everything ahead (according to their ideals, and get pissed when their plans/ideals are crossed)
    -Percievers are spontaneous
    Irrelevant. What makes an idealist an idealist is their ideals, or thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    -Judgers stick to their opinion and their minds aren't easily changed
    -Percievers are open to changes and they can change their mind easily
    Try crossing a Fi user's morals.

  3. #13
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx
    Posts
    389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Evastover View Post
    Idealism, using your definition as the strength of one's values, is something which is not directly caused by type or function. It is an individual thing thing outside of the realm of MBTI. I'm sure you could find statistic correalations in regards to idealism and type, but the strength of one's values is not determined by type.
    Having a bunch of ideas in your head isn't idealism. I have a bunch of ideas im my head, too. According to what @Southern Kross said, I would be just as idealistic. The difference is: I know I can't accomplish my ideals and I don't have the desire to do so (except for becoming a lawyer). An INFJ, on the other hand, DOES. They don't care if they can't accomplish their ideals. They do all in their power to do it anyway, because they have the desire to do so.
    If desire was irrelevant, everybody would be an idealist for every little thing they want. For example, if there's a kid that considers getting an ice cream for whatever reason, he would be an idealist just because he wants an ice cream, or? NO. This kid's not an idealist.
    MBTI:
    Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral
    Sins: Pride > Sloth > Gluttony > Wrath > Greed > Lust > Envy

    "Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  4. #14
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    "Once they decide something". NJs make decisions according to their ideals. If you have to make up your mind, you're not that idealistic.
    I think being excessively careful is an expression of idealism. Anyone deeply invested in truth, morality, and ethics will be quite careful in decision making.


    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    But why are you so laid-back in the first place? People that want to accomplish something are idealistic. People that want to accomplish something aren't laid-back. So in a way, people that are laid-back aren't as idealistic.
    Why does an ideal have to 'accomplish something'? Read up of Buddhism and you'll find tremendously deep idealism in the concept of peace and acceptance. There is idealism that is about finding the beauty beneath the pain, of being able to see the truth in the shadows of our assumptions. By becoming quiet, observing, and open, we can see the idealism that is already there and we no longer have to force ourselves or our wills onto a reality without first understanding it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)
    Likes Ene liked this post

  5. #15
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    Having a bunch of ideas in your head isn't idealism. I have a bunch of ideas im my head, too. According to what @Southern Kross said, I would be just as idealistic. The difference is: I know I can't accomplish my ideals and I don't have the desire to do so (except for becoming a lawyer). An INFJ, on the other hand, DOES. They don't care if they can't accomplish their ideals. They do all in their power to do it anyway, because they have the desire to do so.
    If desire was irrelevant, everybody would be an idealist for every little thing they want. For example, if there's a kid that considers getting an ice cream for whatever reason, he would be an idealist just because he wants an ice cream, or? NO. This kid's not an idealist.
    INFPs have auxiliary Ne, which is far from inactive, and Fi responds strongly in violation to ideals. The individual may be less proactive, but they may be highly reactive, whether in response to a violation of an ideal (which happens a lot if the ideals are very high) or possibilties they see emerging to realize an ideal.

    In short, theyre just less strategic, but far more exploratory (involving action), which in some ways is MORE idealistic because its thinking you can realize an ideal without a plan, but just stumbling across it as you mess around in life.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe
    Likes Ene, labyrinthine, thoughtlost liked this post

  6. #16
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx
    Posts
    389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    INFPs have auxiliary Ne, which is far from inactive, and Fi responds strongly in violation to ideals. The individual may be less proactive, but they may be highly reactive, whether in response to a violation of an ideal (which happens a lot if the ideals are very high) or possibilties they see emerging to realize an ideal.

    In short, theyre just less strategic, but far more exploratory (involving action), which in some ways is MORE idealistic because its thinking you can realize an ideal without a plan, but just stumbling across it as you mess around in life.
    But I always got this feeling that Js have this desire to accomplish their ideals, no matter what.
    In other words, the INFJ's ideals are higher priority to INFJs than INFPs' ideals to INFPs.
    MBTI:
    Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral
    Sins: Pride > Sloth > Gluttony > Wrath > Greed > Lust > Envy

    "Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  7. #17
    Injustice Needs To stoP RandomINTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    7w8 sx
    Posts
    389

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I think being excessively careful is an expression of idealism. Anyone deeply invested in truth, morality, and ethics will be quite careful in decision making.
    If you're a realist, you're not that much of an idealist. realists see the world as it is, and Idealists imagine the world as it should be (according to them).

    Why does an ideal have to 'accomplish something'? Read up of Buddhism and you'll find tremendously deep idealism in the concept of peace and acceptance. There is idealism that is about finding the beauty beneath the pain, of being able to see the truth in the shadows of our assumptions. By becoming quiet, observing, and open, we can see the idealism that is already there and we no longer have to force ourselves or our wills onto a reality without first understanding it.
    Not just simply "something". Idealists want to accomplish their ideals. If peace is an ideal, they will try to achieve it, and it isn't hard. I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.
    MBTI:
    Alignment: Chaotic-Neutral
    Sins: Pride > Sloth > Gluttony > Wrath > Greed > Lust > Envy

    "Only two things are infinite. The universe, and human stupidity, but I'm not sure about the former." -Albert Einstein
    "You know you're in love when you can't fall asleep because reality is finally better than your dreams." -Dr. Seuss
    "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -J. K. Rowling

  8. #18
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    3

    Default

    Infp

  9. #19
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.
    Do you see the errors in reasoning you are making throughout this thread?

    Read this: Reasoning, and What It Is To Be Rational - it's quite good, then come back, take a look at the thread again and see if you can spot places where your arguments are not supported.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes Ivy, OrangeAppled liked this post

  10. #20
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    If you're a realist, you're not that much of an idealist. realists see the world as it is, and Idealists imagine the world as it should be (according to them).
    Imagination does not require action. It is possible to view the world through such rose-colored, unrealistic lens that no activism is needed. I'm not suggesting that is the case with either type, but I think you have constrained your concept of idealism to fit the foregone conclusion that a "J" is more idealistic. If idealism = acting upon the world then an extroverted Judging function would be more likely to do this than Ji in the lowest resolution set of assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomINTP View Post
    Not just simply "something". Idealists want to accomplish their ideals. If peace is an ideal, they will try to achieve it, and it isn't hard. I believe an INFJ is more likely to protest against something than an INFP would. A true idealist has his ideals as the #1 priority.
    You are thinking more of activism than idealism. While there is a relationship between the two, they are not synonymous.

    i'm curious that your initial assumption seems quite important to you. Is there a reason that one conclusion is more important to you than the other? Are you thinking about specific people in your life and desire that what you see in their idealism maps universally? However this question can be answered, the main point I care to make is that it is enormously more complex than to assume that Je is more idealistic than Ji because idealism requires acting upon the external world. There are many assumptions in that statement that are not that easily provable.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-30-2015, 12:18 AM
  2. Are Ps More Sensitive Than Js?
    By freeeekyyy in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 11-04-2011, 07:26 AM
  3. Are Extroverts more Creative than Introvert?
    By Not_Me in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 08-11-2010, 07:20 PM
  4. [E8] Are Js more "8" than Ps?
    By yenom in forum Enneatypes
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 12-10-2009, 11:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO