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  1. #41
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What would happen if you stopped expecting it? What would happen if you stopped transacting?
    Not much? I would have a bunch of half-friendships where my friends believe I'm just as happy as they are. It could give an illusion of not being alone but it wouldn't last since I would still know what I need and what they need. I can give them all they need, but they can't or won't return the favor. The difference here is that the people I mostly meet, aren't like me just as I am not like them. They prefer keeping it simple, I want it deep.

    I believe that every relationship if based on some kind of transaction, who's turn it is doing what. And if the other doesn't ever do he's part, it starts to stick out and raising questions. Sure, he could just be like that like I am what I am like, but then the question is, does our friendship have a future. Future where both of us can be happy of our friendship or does it lead - increasingly - to a situation where one is happy and the other one is just keeping up the happy face not to hurt or disappoint the other.

    To be precise, I'm not expecting it, that was a bit poor wording on my part. It's an basic assumption of mine - my hypothesis - that being like that, taking people into account, asking how they're doing and listening and responding to that, would lead to deep everlasting friendships. I've seen enough of the other kind to say that it won't lead to that. I can tolerate up to point, I can do it, I've done it a lot, but it gives me very little.

    Trust you to do what? In what way should he trust you?
    To trust that I have his best interest in my heart. That I'm not scheming or lying or bending the truth or anything.

    A gentle question - do you think you are an easy person to ask?
    I don't know the answer. I would say yes. I would like to think I am. You don't seem to have a problem. But I know many would say no. But I have said to this particular friends, and actually many others, that if there's ever anything they want to know, they can come and ask me. I said this to him just a couple of weeks before.

    Or is your expectation that an ESFP, the most "live in the moment" type there is, and you the most "plan in the future" type of person there is, is your expectation that he should be able to do anything but process in the moment, this moment, blurting out emotions, fair?
    You are right. But I am forced to live in moment. "Don't think about it!" And I try to do that to the best of my ability. I enjoy(ed) the moments when we were together, immensely, I didn't think of the future. I forgave him once before he screwed up again, I forgot about the future and what my intuition was saying. And also, I think to come and ask me is also living in the present, it's about controlling himself, not necessarily about being impulsive and an ESFP. ESFP can't be used as a "free from the jail" card.

    And taking it a little further, now you are ending a relationship just "like all the people" do. He hurt you and didn't trust you and now you will end it. Hey, I've seen it a hundred times, people walking away from people. Do you realize that you too are being "like all the people" and I can say the same thing about you are saying about your friend?
    There's enough people that "like all the people" can be used to describe anything. The point was, people take the easiest or the most natural way out - not the most logical or even the most human. I hope you don't suggest that this is such to me, we wouldn't be having this discussion if it were. He has been difficult for the last year and I've let those pass - like he has let my complaining of his behaviour pass. I have trusted that it will turn out okay, we will be fine. But when the problems are getting bigger, the trust is fading away, the problems aren't gonna go away. I've tried to face them, he has little interest. He has apologized to me, and then screwed up again. What's right amount of apologies for me to say, this is not going to work?

    I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you just on principle or because you make me feel bad. I'm not actually feeling bad but I don't want you to think I'm saying that to negate everything you have said. You have said a lot of valuable things. But also, I'm not so sure if we are really speaking of the same framework - which could be in because of my language barrier. I can't tell my ideas and open my thinking as fully as I could in my language. Maybe. Maybe you understand me nonetheless.

    I value your company, time you are giving to my problem, your compassion and understanding. Really, I do.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  2. #42
    noʎ ɟo ǝʇnɔ ʍoH Mademoiselle's Avatar
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    Can I ask how old are you?
    Because evey age's ideal relationship system is different, also it depends on comunity as well.
    Yes, it doesn't matter what your personality is, there are tonnes of different people put there, and for every type there's many other types to get along with.

    After all you don't really need them to be perfect orzz you don't want to marry them haha
    But really they don't have to be a certain way, instead you should learn to live woth them

    Friendship has it's responsibilities based of closeness, you should let there be balace, think of it as thmubs ups and thumbs downs, or likes for everytime a person is good towards you, has the traits you like, and dislikes for every one who you cannot stand, then measure everyone and try to act the same.

    In that way you can get rid of many problems including betrayal, getting used fir other people's selfish purposes or excpecting more from someobe which is followed by disappointment, sometimes even depression.

    And everyone ewually has good things and bad things in their lifes, that's so life, so never think if yourself as misrable because you were overrating a stupid fact about orher people to be blind before your awesomeness, and look at the bright side, be happy with the good things you have.
    Imagine this is the best thing you've ever read.

  3. #43
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    It's an basic assumption of mine - my hypothesis - that being like that, taking people into account, asking how they're doing and listening and responding to that, would lead to deep everlasting friendships. I've seen enough of the other kind to say that it won't lead to that. I can tolerate up to point, I can do it, I've done it a lot, but it gives me very little.
    Yes, I understand what you're saying because I used to believe this also. I feel like you're in a space that I felt quite keenly in my twenties / early thirties. I would like to share about that for two reasons: 1.) I feel your pain-space and it is familiar to me and 2.) I've noticed a pattern in my interactions here on the forum where older INFJs connect better with younger INFPs so I'm wondering if opening up that part of me will be beneficial to you. I'm still parsing all the reasons why, so can't quite fully explain, but if you'll indulge me for a bit and trust I have your well-being at heart, I'll share a bit about me in order to help you perhaps see a bit about you and what directions you might turn to for finding the mutually fulfilling friendships you desire.

    When I was in my late teens I discovered the book, "How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. For a socially awkward person, this seemed like a godsend to me! Imagine that you could follow the advice in that book and have friends - it appeared amazing and this was something I was keen to explore. So, influenced by the optimism the book provided, I ventured into my twenties believing that by following a rote set of protocols (basically) that friendship would, I don't know, somehow magically blossom. By being the very best friend I could be to someone, mutual friendship would just happen. I believed that by playing my part in a friendship, the part where I am kind and a good listener and considerate and thoughtful of my friend, that this would lead to mutually connected relationships. This was probably my entire framework of friendship when I was in my twenties. What this approach gained was a bunch of one-sided friendships where my energy and capacity to give were strained to the maximum. I felt utterly sucked dry. I attracted mostly people who wanted to be recipients of the kind of attention I was willing to provide. People who were emotionally needy, people who were physically needy (didn't have a car and needed a ride kind of people). People who basically wanted what I was offering to give, and it was a one-sided thing, very much like you describe. I gave these relationships time, weeks and months and years of time ... time to get close in the way I hoped for and imagined it might happen. I listened and listened and waited patiently for my turn to talk. But those turns rarely came. Now, I don't blame those other people for the dynamic, they aren't bad people, they are just people who, for the most part quite subconsciously, only sought to get their needs met. Their affection for me was genuine. But it was understood only in that transactional nature, where if I was giving what they needed, there was a relationship. As soon as that ended, there really was no friendship, at least not in the way I had defined it going in. Thankfully not every friendship from that time was like this, but the majority were.

    Now, realize too as I write this, encapsulating more than a decade of my life is very difficult and hardly nuanced. I was so lonely and didn't understand why I was in the position I was. Friendships sure, but just like you describe, one-sided, energy-draining, and they left me craving deeper connection that seemed elusive and I hardly even believed it possible anymore that I could find friends like that. I was so emotionally drained by work, caring for my young family and maintaining these energy-sucking friendships, I started having panic attacks when I was 30. Panic attacks were the signal of imbalance for me, and they still are today (when I get a bunch, it's a signal I'm not paying attention to something). So, my thirties became a decade of both deep emotional exploration and just hanging on at times, trying to care for my husband and children and working to help our family financially. I turned to emotional suppression as an answer. If I could quell or crush the emotions, if I could control the fear and loneliness, that would get me through. I believed the emotions caused the panic, as opposed to being a signal to help me. What a harsh emotional taskmaster I was, trying to silence my own inner voices, and the undoing of that now in my forties, so much I could write about ... but suffice to say, suppression is not an answer. This "ultimate suppression" is kind of where I think INFJs reside ... that you are trying to be the master of how you feel, and try to tell yourselves how you should feel. Anyway, that could be an essay. Perhaps there's some exploration of merit here too.

    So, I am now 47, not much older than you, and I am currently blessed with many genuine connections not based in the transactional nature of how I used to try to be a friend (which I might add was honest and well-intentioned, just not very understanding of how the energy of things works). My connections are now based on my willingness to love each friend, a choice I make, not something that just "happens". I know this will sound a bit airy-fairy maybe, or like semantics perhaps, and you might not be able to connect with the words I am using to try to describe a heart-space, but I have thrown off the reserve, the place of myself I used to hold back, the little space that felt afraid of being hurt. I have learned that me holding that back means others hold that back too. People fear the risk as well. We are all holding back what we wish to attain! Such irony. When I am with a person and listening to their story, I connect as deeply with them as I possibly can. I love that person and what they are saying and sharing and I give them that piece of me that IS true connection. I show it through my eyes, not in a false way of appearing interested, but in looking so deeply into theirs as to connect with their very essence. I wish I could explain it better and I want to reach through this screen and share how it feels lol.

    Actually, I can share by offering that to you too. I offer you my ears and heart and wish to listen to you most fully. You are not alone, you are loved, and you have in you the ability to connect with anyone in this way and not feel that one-sided transactional kind of friendship anymore. You just love that person, an agape love, a love that recognizes the human connection, the strands that connect us all and honors that. When you open that space, share someone that part of you, in their/your eyes you will see/they will see reflected exactly what you wish for because they wish for it too, and that connection is born, it happens because you were the first to dare it, and it is a precious gift. I am still learning too, there is so much to learn. eta: the neat thing about loving - there is no well to suck dry. It's a bottomless resevoir not reliant on you to keep putting something in to replenish it.

    So, my friend, I hope the words help you. Tell me how you feel.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes Eilonwy, grey_beard liked this post

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    It can get better. Almost my entire life has felt painfully alone, but it is actually different now. I would have had a hard time believing life could change so much. I spent decades working really hard and taking big risks, but it is possible to change what feels completely set in stone.

    One thing that helped me was relocating. People will say that you can't run away from your problems and that every place is the same, but I've had the opportunity to live in literally dozens of different locations and it's true that 90% of them are the same, but change often enough and you can find a place that is different.

    Also, it may help you to hear one strategy. I cannot socialize in an improvised, spontaneous way like it is usually done. The friendships and relationships I've established have been more structured. As a musician I have a couple of duos that help to establish friendships and one that helped establish a relationship. Do you have any interests that can be worked on with another person? That structured, shared activity approach is helpful for the non-social person who needs a few connections.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #45
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, my friend, I hope the words help you. Tell me how you feel.
    Thank you for sharing, I feel you. Now I know where you're coming from and can get a better grasp of what you mean. It seems we have gone through a lot of the same trials while looking for a friendship.

    What hit the mark was your notion of emotional suppression. I haven't realized I'm doing that. Or I sort of have but I have justified it by thinking it's best for the other people. My thoughts and opinions come with a LOT of emotion and when I say and especially when I argument something, I can accidentally put people down. And showing my true emotions as they are is draining for me and I suspect that it can be draining to anyone else. What I didn't know - before the introspection you forced me to do, thank you for that - is how systematic and full this suppression actually is and - probably - how difficult it might be for people to "get" me because of that.

    I've been a loner all my life, more or less. I don't know many INFJ's (who does?) and if I've known, I haven't been aware of it. While it is only four alphabets, I feel it separates me a lot from surrounding society and people. I'm am just so different.

    This doesn't mean I don't believe there could be true friendship for me. It mainly explains (as far as my theory goes) why I've accustomed to control my emotions and thinking. I've been (and am) afraid that by revealing all of it in it's full extent with all my intellectual and emotional potential will scare people away. And not to lie, I'm afraid of my emotions too. They can be so absurdly strong and too often I have very little control over them. They come like a tidal wave, both positive and negative. There's that fear - but also the fear of revealing myself.

    I think the difference between you and me is that I can't love people before I know them and know I can trust them. The basic trust and respect in the beginning of a friendship isn't enough for me to show people my feelings because I believe the strength of them can really turn people away at the beginning. Especially when I most likely know them already better than they know me and I have some kind of sense what and how I can speak to them. I mean, I'm further into the friendship than they are. It's partly my thirst to get to know them for the curiosity but also to know if they can be someone who I can trust. And I guess it might feel a bit pushy to them.

    But if I understood correctly, you mean that by giving and showing yourself first, the friendship will become two-sided?

    And I also feel you're are exactly the kind of friend I need from a friendship. You are interested in listening to me, to try to understand me as a human being and even have the time trying to help me. And we're a thousands of miles away from each other - while people near me don't even bother.

    I'm aware I'm not saying anything about your problems, I'm thinking about them or of what little I now know. I just don't want you to feel I'm not interested. I am. And I really appreciate you for sharing them.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  6. #46
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    Also, it may help you to hear one strategy. I cannot socialize in an improvised, spontaneous way like it is usually done. The friendships and relationships I've established have been more structured. As a musician I have a couple of duos that help to establish friendships and one that helped establish a relationship. Do you have any interests that can be worked on with another person? That structured, shared activity approach is helpful for the non-social person who needs a few connections.
    I do, through theater. But let me ask you a question: how do you as an INFJ fit to the society?
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  7. #47
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I do, through theater. But let me ask you a question: how do you as an INFJ fit to the society?
    It's not easy. I tried teaching in academia and it made me literally sick from the falseness, complex ego power plays, etc. I had constant nausea, headaches, and dizziness, so I had to quit. I can't work in competitive environments, so that leaves slim pickins for work. I freelance, don't make much money, but spend a fair amount of time with therapeutic applications of music.

    I play music in hospitals for palliative care, so that is intense witnessing pain and suffering, but it doesn't make me sick. I also teach lessons, and naturally work well with special needs students, particularly neuro-atypical ones. I work well with autistic students because I can observe and learn their highly individualized forms of communication. I'm not good at normative interactions (regardless of having "Fe"), but I am quite good at being able to find patterns and reconstruct a person's communication from the ground up. I'm extremely tolerant of any behaviors that are innocent at their core.

    I have my own hypersensitivity/obliviousness and have wondered if I'm neuro-atypical, but in some way that doesn't have a label. I have intense empathy that makes personal relationships confusing, and my mother was the same way. When another person feels justified in a behavior it's hard to hold onto my own perspective and push back. I've finally found a partner who is also an INFJ and super laid back (E9) like me.

    It has taken decades to figure out a situation that doesn't make me sick or lose my mind. It has been horrifically painful along the way. Now I have some physical issues to overcome and tremendous pain to let go of, and for as much as I have to understand and analyze everything, I know I cannot ever understand what life has done to me, so I can now work on letting go like a dog would when they are finally in a situation that doesn't hurt them.

    That's all I've got. I don't fit in very easily, although no one can see it because I'm quiet and polite, and so primarily unknown to others.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I've been a loner all my life, more or less. I don't know many INFJ's (who does?) and if I've known, I haven't been aware of it. While it is only four alphabets, I feel it separates me a lot from surrounding society and people. I'm am just so different.
    Yes, you are different, but you are also the same. I have a little idea in my mind of something I would like you to try - are you on Facebook? If so, "Like" the "Humans of New York" page: https://www.facebook.com/humansofnewyork. This page pulls back the human curtain and sheds light onto the people all around you, reveals the wonder of human universes to explore. What most people want above all else is to feel known. You have it in you to help another person feel the love in that. Collaterally, you'll no longer feel such a pressing need to be known, because you'll become more aware of how much the same we all are.

    If you were to guess their story just by looking at the photo, could you? There's a space that INFJs don't really see ... but if you know it's there you can account for it. So, if you follow this page over time, I am interested to know how those people make you feel before you see their story (just their photo) and after you read their story.

    This doesn't mean I don't believe there could be true friendship for me. It mainly explains (as far as my theory goes) why I've accustomed to control my emotions and thinking. I've been (and am) afraid that by revealing all of it in it's full extent with all my intellectual and emotional potential will scare people away. And not to lie, I'm afraid of my emotions too. They can be so absurdly strong and too often I have very little control over them. They come like a tidal wave, both positive and negative. There's that fear - but also the fear of revealing myself.
    I hear you. As an INFP I'm the type who's supposed to be most comfortable with emotions and they scare me too at times, and I've tried to control them as well, be the master of them, and I can be very, very good at it. When you use force against a thing though, it grows in strength in opposition to the suppression. Your emotions, that seem at present so strong, when given some attention from yourself, will not seem so overwhelming. Once your emotions trust you will not try to "shut them up" or change them into something you want them to be or they are not, they don't have to be nearly so loud to get your attention. They will not best you, they wish to guide you. They need the gentle hand of respect and admiration in order to offer you their messages of growth.

    I think the difference between you and me is that I can't love people before I know them and know I can trust them. The basic trust and respect in the beginning of a friendship isn't enough for me to show people my feelings because I believe the strength of them can really turn people away at the beginning. Especially when I most likely know them already better than they know me and I have some kind of sense what and how I can speak to them. I mean, I'm further into the friendship than they are. It's partly my thirst to get to know them for the curiosity but also to know if they can be someone who I can trust. And I guess it might feel a bit pushy to them.
    Yes, you are INFJ, trust is paramount, I realize INFJs are scanning the environment to avoid people and things that would hurt them. I'd like to dig here if you're interested. Let's examine the nature of hurt. Tell me what kinds of behaviours hurt you the most.

    But if I understood correctly, you mean that by giving and showing yourself first, the friendship will become two-sided?
    Yes, and I choose this - I am not waiting to get signs of trust, I offer them and you will know when they are received by the other person by how you feel. And it is not always reciprocated, it's a gift that is sometimes left wrapped rather than opened by the recipient. And that's ok too, you just smile and move on. It can hurt a bit to have offered such a gift that's not appreciated, but far better to offer it and see clearly when it IS appreciated than always wonder who will extend the invitation first.

    And I also feel you're are exactly the kind of friend I need from a friendship. You are interested in listening to me, to try to understand me as a human being and even have the time trying to help me. And we're a thousands of miles away from each other - while people near me don't even bother.
    You're very kind to say so. There are lots of people around me who don't bother either, but I kind of accept that this is simply the way things are. Another reason I want you to get acquainted over time with the "Humans of New York" page is to realize that in so many of the everyday faces, there are thousands of points of connection you might be missing. So if you are interested in trying to understand someone at that primary point, as a human being, you will find people like me who reciprocate the favor. The sequence is - I want to understand you, you feel more known, and you reciprocate to me. You just are the person to start, and not by being who you think they want, but by being you, flawed and messy sometimes, with emotions and opinions and fears.

    Think about it - you dared to post this thread. You were the first to open your heart, seek connection, so it was your vulnerability and sincerity that helped start things off. People might as well like you for who you are than who you think you're supposed to be.

    I'm aware I'm not saying anything about your problems, I'm thinking about them or of what little I now know. I just don't want you to feel I'm not interested. I am. And I really appreciate you for sharing them.
    Again, you're very kind, and I can use the INFJ wisdom in my life, as I am not very strategic when it comes to people. I tend to rush in with my ideals and hope my diplomacy, kindness and good intentions make up for a lack of having a good eye on the trajectory of likely outcomes. If you have thoughts, I am open to hear them, but you're not obligated to fix anything, I don't expect that. I do appreciate the offer though, want to make sure you know that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #49
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I read this today and thought of you:

    “No relationship can truly grow if you go on holding back. If you remain clever and go on safeguarding and protecting yourself, only personalities meet, and the essential centers remain alone. Then only your mask is related, not you. Whenever such a thing happens, there are four persons in the relationship, not two. Two false persons go on meeting, and the two real persons remain worlds apart.” ~Osho

    Hope you are well!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #50
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    getting back to the inside of yourself all the way to the touch of the body is good. for me (and from what i've gathered from others), that's the place where one's own needs register. as an e4, the worst part is feeling shame about your own needs. identifying not with our path but with the way they look from the outside. that increases neediness rather than focuses accountability. because there's usually an infinite array of possibilities to start meeting those. so many ways of appreciating the moments in which you realize you are caring for yourself by serving one of those needs that you build up a healthy, trusting relationship with yourself, the positivity rises in all these little moments, and the big gaping abyss-y neediness starts to dwindle away. the freedom and flexibility to choose how you respond to others, how you ask for them to meet your needs, how you direct your energies in terms of appreciating the ways others can offer their own version of friendship based on where they are at in their own respective paths all grows. when we get stuck and just entranced by the loneliness, all the potential joys of life get sapped of their energy and vitality because we stop bringing our full presence to them. when we get to the core of our actual needs, the deepest ones we have, we can allow ourselves to be there because the pains and hungers/thirsts there are still acceptable, our hearts realize they are actually strong enough, when the fears preventing us from facing them slow the fuck down.

    as pb notes, appreciating the relativity side of things, the unknown open-ended side, the way that consensual reality isn't ours to own (and what we can own is simply our guesses of it), is really important too. generally i get more dug in on my specialness and perceptiveness when my ego is more craving some validation, and that gets worse when there's not enough pleasure in my life and presence enough to be there, enjoy it, and appreciate the process of flowing thru it.

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