User Tag List

First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 51

  1. #31
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Excuse me, sir, but ALL good friendships require work.
    Well, I do know that. I was just making a point which wasn't meant to be taken literally.

    Challenge and unconsiderating behaviour are two different things. I've forgiven him multiple times. It hasn't unlocked anything. Trust takes work, naturally, but if it feels I'm the only one doing the work, how fair is that? Or if my trust is stronger than his? As I said, it's mainly an one-sided relationship.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  2. #32
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    It's night time here. So I hit the sack for now.
    Hope you had a good sleep.

    Absolutely. It is because of me. That's who I am and if other people aren't willing or capable to change, why would I - especially since I feel I've always been the one to give up and try to turn into whatever people want me to be. Unsuccessfully, though.
    I can relate to what you are sharing, and that sense of things being one-sided can be very painful. What does ideal friendship look like to you? What would it look like if someone changed for you, how would you know it was happening? What would their behaviour be?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #33
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    What does ideal friendship look like to you? What would it look like if someone changed for you, how would you know it was happening? What would their behaviour be?
    Ideal friendship is sharing life with each other, paying attention to what the other is saying without just waiting for a opportunity to talk about myself. Being interested of the other, who he is, how he thinks or feels, is he okay or does he have problems I can discuss with him, and maybe try to help. Support when needed.

    It's taking the other in consideration and not to call him only when I need something from him. And after learning to know him, weighing my words so that I know I won't hurt him. But also. being honest and facing the problems if and when those rise. Just being there that the other knows I'm always available if there's problems.

    But about changing... That was probably poor wording from my part. Not in that sense that I feel it's most often me who has to adapt to other people. I can't be who I really am, in full extent of it, because they probably couldn't handle it. But I don't want anyone change for me, I don't feel myself so special that I would want people to turn into something they are not just to please me. And I can accept people as they are but what I can't accept is bad behaviour, changing or wavering loyalties and untrust.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  4. #34
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.



    I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.

    He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.

    He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.



    That is true and I'm coming to understand that. I just feel like I'm insulting others intellect by stating the obvious by I telling what I want, how I think etc.
    We imitate others because we just want to make sure that we do not hurt others. Everybody deserves to be loved. That said, 5-6 years is plenty of time to build trust. Perhaps you just trusted him a little too more than he thought and he just did not have enough information to shake some doubt about something you said. He let the doubt build in his mind as more and more possible interpretations of your words multiplied, driving him to madness. He eventually had to say something, but I would have been far more diplomatic when bringing it up than he was. I like what @PeaceBaby is telling you.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  5. #35
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Well, I do know that. I was just making a point which wasn't meant to be taken literally.

    Challenge and unconsiderating behaviour are two different things. I've forgiven him multiple times. It hasn't unlocked anything. Trust takes work, naturally, but if it feels I'm the only one doing the work, how fair is that? Or if my trust is stronger than his? As I said, it's mainly an one-sided relationship.
    Did you lay out all of your gripes on the table before leaving him? Did you tell him exactly how you felt? If you gave super-specific problems to work on and several practical ways of solving each problem, things would have gone better.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  6. #36
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Did you lay out all of your gripes on the table before leaving him? Did you tell him exactly how you felt? If you gave super-specific problems to work on and several practical ways of solving each problem, things would have gone better.
    Yes, I did. Point by point, what had happened and how I felt about it. I didn't give homework or anything, that would be pushing it. I like people to figure out something by themselves. After that he screwed up again, doing the exact same thing he blamed me of (which I hadn't done). Basically a minor thing but not in this context. And this was after our good meeting and mutual understanding. So he learnt nothing.

    Perhaps you just trusted him a little too more than he thought and he just did not have enough information to shake some doubt about something you said. He let the doubt build in his mind as more and more possible interpretations of your words multiplied, driving him to madness. He eventually had to say something, but I would have been far more diplomatic when bringing it up than he was.
    That's probably a very accurate analysis. He actually said that that's how does it: just says the things that pop up in his mind. And I don't work that way, I never say anything without thinking how it sounds and how it might affect people.

    Also, I think he has a problem of others leading him.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  7. #37
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Yes, I did. Point by point, what had happened and how I felt about it. I didn't give homework or anything, that would be pushing it. I like people to figure out something by themselves. After that he screwed up again, doing the exact same thing he blamed me of (which I hadn't done). Basically a minor thing but not in this context. And this was after our good meeting and mutual understanding. So he learnt nothing.



    That's probably a very accurate analysis. He actually said that that's how does it: just says the things that pop up in his mind. And I don't work that way, I never say anything without thinking how it sounds and how it might affect people.

    Also, I think he has a problem of others leading him.
    I got that impression. Honestly, though, if he did not fix the points after you addressed them, you did all you could do without hovering over him like a parental figure of some kind, which would make him resent you more. That said, I am now trying to see exactly what he say that spooked him. You do not seem that scheming to me, in all honesty. Could you provide a transcript of one of your interactions?
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  8. #38
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    139

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    Could you provide a transcript of one of your interactions?
    Sorry but no time nor interest. Besides, they are just memories. Either of us couldn't trust them.

    I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being. I know by tiredness is part of the reason why my cup gets full much faster than it used to - but even in this case it took an year. Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.

    And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.

    That's what I'm so tired about.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  9. #39
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    ENFP Ne
    Posts
    3,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Sorry but no time nor interest. Besides, they are just memories. Either of us couldn't trust them.

    I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being. I know by tiredness is part of the reason why my cup gets full much faster than it used to - but even in this case it took an year. Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.

    And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.

    That's what I'm so tired about.
    I empathize with you.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  10. #40
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I'm just so tired of expecting people behave respectfully and compassionately towards me or any other human being.
    What would happen if you stopped expecting it?

    If you try to "be" that which you wish to receive, you are entering into a transaction with another person. In any transaction, we come to know what one is owed or not owed. What would happen if you stopped transacting?

    Like I said in the opening post, I'm so disappointed that when I try to do all the right things, take everything and everyone into account, I try to protect them from things I know would hurt or stress them out and decide to carry all the shit just by myself, it ends for blaming be irresponsible, untrustworthy and even dictator. Even by my friend who should by now trust me.
    Trust you to do what? In what way should he trust you?

    And if the first fucking thought in his head is anger or doubt, isn't he an adult who can stop himself and instead of blurting it all out like a child ask himself if this is really the truth considering all he knows - should - know about me? And even, if fails at that, why can't he come and ASK me. Two possible, nice solutions to a problem. And he picks the third one. Like all the people.
    I hear you and feel your frustration. A gentle question - do you think you are an easy person to ask? Or is your expectation that an ESFP, the most "live in the moment" type there is, and you the most "plan in the future" type of person there is, is your expectation that he should be able to do anything but process in the moment, this moment, blurting out emotions, fair?

    And taking it a little further, now you are ending a relationship just "like all the people" do. He hurt you and didn't trust you and now you will end it. Hey, I've seen it a hundred times, people walking away from people. Do you realize that you too are being "like all the people" and I can say the same thing about you are saying about your friend?

    Now, I'm on your side, I'm on your team here to help figure it out. My intent here is not to give you the gears ... to make you feel guilty or bad or that you're in the wrong. I know that what I'm saying is going to cause you internal distress, and there's a good reason for that, in that it is in that place where you will learn the truth about yourself, about what these emotions mean and how they can help you even though they hurt right now.

    My intent is positive and it's to step away from right or wrong and look at what is. Ask some questions to help you think of things outside of your own framework. They feel hard because they are. I don't have it all figured out myself but what I do know is that sometimes what bothers us about other people is not about them at all, but about ourselves. If you turn that outward gaze inward, you will find an evolution in yourself and a path to deeper satisfaction in all of your friendships. It's not about what you do. It's not about what they do.

    I haven't forgotten the other info I promised, I'm having a little trouble locating the link! But I will find the stuff that was on my mind and send it along too. Sending you a hug Nico_D, for being brave to vent your pain outside to start a process of understanding inside.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Similar Threads

  1. INFJ Dude here. Sup.
    By Trodglen in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 03-21-2015, 01:26 PM
  2. When any type other than INFJ doorslams you/cuts you out of their life
    By SilkRoad in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 02-03-2014, 11:26 PM
  3. Any other avid tea lovers here?
    By Elfboy in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-26-2010, 09:26 PM
  4. Just an INFJ/INTP here. =]
    By ZanesBrain in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-09-2008, 03:05 PM
  5. [INFJ] Miserable INFJ roommate
    By LostInNerSpace in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 03-14-2008, 06:30 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO