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  1. #21
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    You managed to show me a part of my foolishness. I seem to fall in the trap of thinking people see me as clearly as I see them. Maybe they don't.
    Turn this thought on yourself rather than outwards on other people. The allure of Ni is to tempt you to believe you see everything about other people. Yet there is a realm of information INFJs are not wired to see, just like every functional combination has a profound blind spot. So, don't fall into the trap of thinking you see people more clearly than they see you.

    But still, I'd say if they know me at all, they should at least know if I'm a good or a bad person and should be able to answer the question does their theory of my evilness suite what they know of me.
    What they see is a person who preemptively bypasses interaction in the present moment in favor of listening to a long-term vision that does not take into account a number of factors that other people deem important. Let's contrast it with Ne a bit to explain. Ne is more in favor of remaining closer to this actual moment. What do you and I make together in this moment? Are we enjoying each other's company, is this beneficial for both of us today? If yes, Ne will build a thousand tomorrows on today's assessment. When Ni says, "I won't be friends with this person because 5 years from now we will part ways" you miss 5 years of caring friendship even if this ends up being true, which perhaps wouldn't be a big deal if life spans were infinite, but they're not.

    If you lived to be 100, you just let 5 years of "today" go. You let go of potentially 1825 days of friendship. 5% of your lifespan.

    It goes the same with "getting rid" of your dear ESFP friend. You let go of thousands of days of caring friendship because you're both human and make mistakes, because he called you a dictator? (I have bad news for you btw - to an ESFP, any J type can seem very oppressive, try putting yourself in those shoes, think of how much easy-going adapting he's probably been offering to you over the years). And now you face the prospect of thousands of tomorrows without that friendship and the years of work already done to nurture it? You're not happier. Now, I'm not saying all combinations are good matches or that people don't grow apart or past each other, they can. I would simply re-examine the pros and cons and perhaps make a working path to at least healing what was in favor of what could again be.

    You're not Ne, nor should you be. But there are lessons from your extroverted cousins to consider, just as they can learn from you. You seem like a nice person and I wish you every happiness. Letting go of today's interactions though are the key to being alone today. If you don't want to be alone today, interact instead.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #22
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, don't fall into the trap of thinking you see people more clearly than they see you.
    Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.


    Are we enjoying each other's company, is this beneficial for both of us today? If yes, Ne will build a thousand tomorrows on today's assessment. When Ni says, "I won't be friends with this person because 5 years from now we will part ways" you miss 5 years of caring friendship... ....It goes the same with "getting rid" of your dear ESFP friend. You let go of thousands of days of caring friendship because you're both human and make mistakes, because he called you a dictator?
    But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.

    Theoretically I agree with you, even if you get some time out of friendship that's better than none. And I have gotten and I appreciate those years I've had to know him. But this situation has reminded me of the things I've always kind of known but denied from myself: that we are very, very different. I've tried to pretender that it's not a problem - and it hasn't been that big of a problem - but no that I can't fool myself anymore...

    You are probably right on that that he's given me slack too. And I know he has. But so have I. A lot. I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.
    Notice I didn't call into account your personal accuracy, I am gently saying that thinking you see everyone better than they see you is a mental trap. Try not to let your framework settle on this as factual, and it will help you stay better open to seeing that each type sees a thing that every other type typically misses. There are things other people see about you that you do not see about yourself. What an interesting place to explore!

    But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.
    Tell me more about this trust. Can you explain how it was broken? Was the name-calling the "last straw" in your eyes? What was the path to this breakdown?

    I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.
    *nods* yes I know what you mean. These areas are important. Generally though, through participation here on the forum, INFJs believe their values about behaviour to be obvious and easily understood by others without them having to be expressly said. Other people should "just know". But that's the cool thing about learning MBTI, realizing that what's obvious to one is not so obvious to another. The ideal relationship is a human one, where we communicate out loud and don't have to just "know" what our partner's expectations are. Over time, one comes to realize that the only real expectations we should be concerned with are the ones that govern ourselves, how we conduct ourselves in relationship anyway.

    But that's a different conversation.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  4. #24
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Notice I didn't call into account your personal accuracy, I am gently saying that thinking you see everyone better than they see you is a mental trap. Try not to let your framework settle on this as factual, and it will help you stay better open to seeing that each type sees a thing that every other type typically misses. There are things other people see about you that you do not see about yourself. What an interesting place to explore!
    Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.

    Tell me more about this trust. Can you explain how it was broken? Was the name-calling the "last straw" in your eyes? What was the path to this breakdown?
    I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.

    He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.

    He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.

    INFJs believe their values about behaviour to be obvious and easily understood by others without them having to be expressly said. Other people should "just know".
    That is true and I'm coming to understand that. I just feel like I'm insulting others intellect by stating the obvious by I telling what I want, how I think etc.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  5. #25
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Oh, I get it. Sorry. Blame in on the language. Agreed.
    Good. No doubt you do see an awful lot that others miss; Ni can be highly insightful.

    I'm the one who's doing something for the friendship. He rarely calls just to talk with me; if he calls, it involves doing some work together (theatre). He isn't interested in my life, I'm the one who asks how he's doing and talking about his things, not vice versa. Basically an one-sided relationship, though admittedly not as bad as some in my life.
    *nods* thanks for sharing that, it helps me see more clearly. My 25 yo son is ESFP, so perhaps a personal story will be helpful here. He doesn't call anyone to do anything. He can tend to stay at home waiting for someone to text or call rather than make plans. He's a lot of fun present-tense and adapts easily to a plan. But his ability to shape the future by making a plan is practically zero. We've talked about this in the past, where he says, "Mom, I have nothing to do" and I say, "So, text so-and-so, what are they all doing tonight?" to which he will reply, "But if they wanted to hang out with me they'd text me!" He sees people not contacting him as "not liking him". That Ni in the inferior position, frequently looking at negative interpretations as fact rather than (likely outlandish) possibility.

    Further, he says he literally cannot think past a few minutes into the future. He is so grounded in the NOW, the RIGHT NOW, the present moment that any tension at trying to shape his own destiny is very stressful. He may be a tad extreme in this regard, but I am hoping this shows you a bit of insight into how ESFPs work.

    So, you are quite opposite in that regard. You are future planning 5 years forward, and your ESFP friend is barely thinking past 5 minutes from now. You see consequences or ramifications far more readily than he ever will.

    He also has this strange ability - I guess you call it that - to change to whomever he's with. He's an actor. When he's alone with me, we have fun together. We a different, yes, but we can have fun. But when there's a third person, he turns into copy of that person. For example, if that third person is a Man (Dude, or the type of man who says "I'm a Man!", you know what I mean), he becomes one. I do not exist anymore, I feel stupid as his loyalties shift to that third people. He starts to question me, ridiculing me even sometimes. And yes, I know, he does that with me too: that's why I probably enjoy his company, as he imitates me too when we are alone.
    That's a bit more ENFP'ish behaviour, but certainly ESFP also shapes and is shaped by the environment around them. Some (of both types) can appear to be almost morphing into the people they are surrounded by. As an INFP I do it too, to a certain extent, in certain situations. I see it as being like a chameleon of sorts and it used to be worrisome, like who I am not having this stable constant core? But it's more about Pe (extroverted perception's) ability to adapt in the moment to the world. It's not about being flaky or inconstant as a person. (I can explain more about this but am pressed for time atm; let me know though if you want to learn more about the differences between Fe/Te and Ne/Se - I can put together some links to help).

    He is also one to demand a particular type of leading and if those are not met, he expresses his immense disappointment. But when he's the one in control, he has no problem to not to take follow his own rules. So, he basically blamed me (wrongly) for doing something he does all the time and which I have always let slide.
    Yes, you've pointed out something not so obvious about ESFP - when they dig their heels in, they can be quite stubborn; especially if they've seemed easy-going for a long stretch, it can seem down-right confusing. You might find your Fe clashes with his Fi from time to time, and this can be a bit of a difficult place to bridge the gap between two people. Again, if you are interested in understanding this point in more detail too, I can put together a quick reference you can explore at your leisure. Let me know again if you would enjoy reading that; it will take me a couple of days to get back to since I have a lot of work to get accomplished today (which is why I am writing to you lolol!) Happy to do it though, just reply and I'll get to it soon.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #26
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    So, you are quite opposite in that regard. You are future planning 5 years forward, and your ESFP friend is barely thinking past 5 minutes from now. You see consequences or ramifications far more readily than he ever will.
    I see that. But that is quite a big difference if I try to take care of our friendship by calling him and asking how he's doing and he's not bothered to since it's not important RIGHT NOW. I think it's a problem and I don't know if I can manage it since I will always feel myself responsible of our friendship. If I don't call, then we will drift apart (because of me).


    That's a bit more ENFP'ish behaviour... Yes, you've pointed out something not so obvious about ESFP .
    EsFP was my interpretation, I could be wrong. But description fits him extremely well, but personally I'm not 100 % sure if he's intuitive or sensing.
    I went with the description. Actually he once told me he listens to his intuition but - to be frank - I didn't trust his analysis.

    But if he's really ENFP... Shouldn't INFJ's and ENFP's be practically the best match? And we are when we are just the two of us. But is that how far INFJ/ENFP -friendship will go?

    If you have sources for me to read, I'm interested!
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  7. #27
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    I see that. But that is quite a big difference if I try to take care of our friendship by calling him and asking how he's doing and he's not bothered to since it's not important RIGHT NOW. I think it's a problem and I don't know if I can manage it since I will always feel myself responsible of our friendship. If I don't call, then we will drift apart (because of me).
    *nods* you've identified something critical here. You are the person who needs the contact in order to feel like the friendship is being maintained. To him, it's quite likely you both being friends is an established fact. Years could pass and he would very likely still consider you a friend, whether the phone rang in those intervening years or not. For you though, there will be drift. You are the one who will feel less like friends.

    So, in recognizing that it is you yourself who has defined a list of behaviours that must be met in order for friendship to remain, are you going to put it all together like a list of criteria that other people must meet to be friends with you, or will you make a list for yourself of all the ways you would like to be as a friend to others? This is very important. In general, most people have a bunch of needs they are trying to get met and they often primarily try do this through their relationships with other people. Then, since other people are human too, it's only natural there are going to be disappointments and misunderstandings. But if you know yourself, can cultivate the same care to be a friend that you require from other people to demonstrate that they are friends, you will find that people disappoint you far less than they ever have before, and you'll be happier for that. Your sense of self-worth will sky-rocket.

    I'm saying you're likely already a wonderful friend, but you're using a definition of friendship that looks at what you're getting as a parameter of success, which leaves other people as failures when they don't measure up to that standard and by extension you an isolated pariah when others disappoint you. ("Look at how much I do for him! Doesn't he see it? Doesn't he appreciate me? I will show him what happens when he doesn't reciprocate what I give!")

    How does it feel when I explain things this way? What reaction do you have?

    If you have sources for me to read, I'm interested!
    Righto, I'll get to it later this aft or tomorrow morn!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
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  8. #28
    The Lost One Nico_D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To him, it's quite likely you both being friends is an established fact. Years could pass and he would very likely still consider you a friend, whether the phone rang in those intervening years or not. For you though, there will be drift. You are the one who will feel less like friends.
    Absolutely. It is because of me. That's who I am and if other people aren't willing or capable to change, why would I - especially since I feel I've always been the one to give up and try to turn into whatever people want me to be. Unsuccessfully, though.

    Friendship as I see it is based on my values. God knows where those values come from. And there we get to your excellent question:

    So, in recognizing that it is you yourself who has defined a list of behaviours that must be met in order for friendship to remain, are you going to put it all together like a list of criteria that other people must meet to be friends with you, or will you make a list for yourself of all the ways you would like to be as a friend to others?
    I would say it's more of the latter. In my (admittedly naive) values people need to appreciate each other, respect each other and show interest in other peoples lives with all it's joys and miseries. It is not a game to me, it's genuine interest. That is the man I thrive to be. And I am. So it's not a list, it's who I am. But since this is giving, I feel I'm entitled to receive the same courtesy or people will drain me.

    I give friendships a lot of time to evolve. I've known him for 5 or 6 years. I've let multiple mishaps slide, talked to him about them telling I don't like it if I'm treated in particular way. But no learn. He hasn't told me anything that bothers him about me. Maybe I'm a perfect friend, or maybe he just doesn't pay attention to me that way. Maybe it's just a manly feel-good friendship. But I need a deeper connection. I'm not into "nice to hang with you, man" kind of friendship.

    But if you know yourself, can cultivate the same care to be a friend that you require from other people to demonstrate that they are friends, you will find that people disappoint you far less than they ever have before, and you'll be happier for that.
    I didn't understand this.

    I'm saying you're likely already a wonderful friend, but you're using a definition of friendship that looks at what you're getting as a parameter of success, which leaves other people as failures when they don't measure up to that standard and by extension you an isolated pariah when others disappoint you. ("Look at how much I do for him! Doesn't he see it? Doesn't he appreciate me? I will show him what happens when he doesn't reciprocate what I give!")
    Well, I'm 40 so I've seen a friendship or two. I'm not bad, I'm not showing anybody anything to teach them a lesson. I'm extremely sad when things go to point I see no way out, especially since the other party can hardly see any problem at all and wonders what the hell am I raving about. Which mean that I have probably damaged the friendship by talking about our problems.

    But that doesn't mean my values or ideals or hopes would be wrong. The other party of any friendship has ideals too, like this friend wants a friendship that doesn't need his attention or consume too much of the energy he has. So there's a conflict of interest. Who is to say it's me who should check his ideals? I might be demanding because how I am - but does that also mean I lose my right to complain?

    I've been a pariah all my life, by nature. I'm alone. I'm just trying to find people - or even a friend - who would share even some of what's inside me, share some of the values and really appreciate and understand me. I think these are the basic components of any friendship.

    How does it feel when I explain things this way? What reaction do you have?
    Shitty. Stupid. Foolish. A bit pissed off?

    But you are a very good at this. And this is a very good example of an discussion I would like to have with a friend I have. Deepness, analysis, questioning.

    It's night time here. So I hit the sack for now.
    "The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd."
    - Bernard Russell

  9. #29
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    I'm not an INFJ, but I definitely feel miserable and alone sometimes, and always imagine it's some deep philosophical thing wrong with the world and myself that will make things shitty forever. And then I just make an effort to meet people and be open to them, and I'm often pleasantly surprised by the connections I make. Even just signing up for an exercise class or volunteering in some modest way perks me up. It's okay to be sad, but when you're ready for some human contact, it's out there.
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  10. #30
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nico_D View Post
    Hate to say this but I do. Probably not everybody but better and more accurately than most. Of course I make mistakes, especially if I give reigns to my emotions.




    But if I see - or think I see which is basically the same thing if I believe in, it will happen - that the friendship is destroyed from my point of view and I can't trust him or trust him to trust me. If there's no trust, can there be anything else? Of course we could spend some time together and reminisce the past and all that - but I'd feel like I was lying.

    Theoretically I agree with you, even if you get some time out of friendship that's better than none. And I have gotten and I appreciate those years I've had to know him. But this situation has reminded me of the things I've always kind of known but denied from myself: that we are very, very different. I've tried to pretender that it's not a problem - and it hasn't been that big of a problem - but no that I can't fool myself anymore...

    You are probably right on that that he's given me slack too. And I know he has. But so have I. A lot. I don't know what a really good friendship is but in my ideal I would think it should be a kind where people behave so that you don't need to give slack to the other all the time since he knows what you values are and so forth.
    Excuse me, sir, but ALL good friendships require work. The very best friendships take years to reach maturity and require lots and lots of slack given from both sides. Friendships that do not need slack are called acquaintanceships. Do you really want to be friends with somebody so simple that there is no challenge involved? For all you know, your forgiveness could have been the key to unlocking the next stage of the relationship that was right around the bend. Trust takes work, and is built over time. Maybe you just needed to work on the trust with him a little more. Maybe you just needed to be more open about your feelings and those thoughts running through your head. All I know is that cutting somebody off is 9 times out of 10 a mistake.
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