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Thread: The J in INFJ

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    Default The J in INFJ

    Do you think it's generally within your right to tell others what to do? Does the J in INFJ result in a desire to be in charge? How does J manifest for you? Does it bother you when others are late, do you need a schedule/routine for everything, are you able to handle surprises, etc? What J-related things frustrate you?

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    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I'm on an Ni-Ti loop for most of my time: almost everything is and is about information to me, and almost everything gets abstracted to the point of remoteness. The most controlling I can get in general is about an inaccuracy that bothers me but it's about the information and not the people.*

    A lot of people seem to think I sound cold or snooty or dismissive in text for some reason, and then say they're surprised at how "sweet" or soft-spoken I sound in person. My best guess is that my internal voice is formal and in writing it's the internal voice that takes the lead.

    *Aux Fe for the most part is a self-consciousness that makes me think a lot about the state of my relations to others and keeping them something like civil. It's reactive to the environment, not proactive with a self-sustaining agenda. Nothing overrides that stance until I have an Se eruption - not dissimilar to an Fi dom having a Te eruption - because normally the battle of wills that follows is too draining for me to even want. I don't have any desire to control people except in that they 'leave me be.' Me being the way I am, others often try to take advantage.

    The usual complaints I get are about aloofness, suspicion, moodiness sometimes, and with or w/o basis, condescension. The first two go down with someone I know and like a lot and jmo I don't see myself as spontaneously condescending. Sometimes I don't offer lots of info about myself or try to fix a misconception about myself unless it's harmful to me because I'm resigned to being somewhat misunderstood anyway.

    I don't really think about J like a function, more like an orientation to my environment that it shouldn't overtake or overwhelm me. Order is just structure and structure is as variable as the skeleton can be shaped without breaking.

    Like: building order, finding an order behind seemingly non-ordered things, finding a structure for something like nonlinearity that enhances its effect.

    Dislike: I'm too different to fit into a lot of the impersonal ones coming from the outside. Aux Fe idealizes the order + Aux Fe owner can't thrive within the order = Owner withdraws and keeps self separate. That's me in a nutshell.

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    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    For me the J is mostly seen in feelings of too much responsibility, and in my tendency to organize the concrete world in order to make it manageable. Nothing else about me is very "J-ish". I'm generally rather laid back, have a hard time getting angry, and am unbothered when people are late, behave differently, etc. I feel that I am very much a perceiver dominant, which a Ni-dom actually is. I don't feel much like a judger and don't tend to draw conclusions about individual people. I guess I do form generalized theories, but even when I express those with some certitude, I almost never experience a feeling of certitude.

    I have a horrible time trying to tell people what to do and I'm a teacher, so it can stress me out. I am so intrigued by different internal thought patterns, that I prefer to observe people and learn subjective systems that exist outside of myself. I teach autistic students and am fascinated to decode their unique language patterns. I don't do well with normative behaviors and assumptions, but am extremely external and individualistic in my interaction with people. I am an extreme case of not telling people what to do and have to consciously try to do more of that with my students, or my superiors will criticize me. I can only understand the concept of self-motivation from a personal standpoint and don't even know intuitively what the process of pressuring someone else is like. I feel the pressure if I try to place it on someone else and I shut down under pressure quickly. When I taught college classes I used final projects instead of final exams because the feeling of anxiety in the room was too much for me and I didn't see it as a constructive activity to recite memorization. When in authority I live with an ongoing, underlying fear, that those in authority over me or even parents will not understand my free-wheeling hippie style.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baccheion View Post
    Do you think it's generally within your right to tell others what to do? Does the J in INFJ result in a desire to be in charge? How does J manifest for you? Does it bother you when others are late, do you need a schedule/routine for everything, are you able to handle surprises, etc? What J-related things frustrate you?
    No, the J in INFJ does not result in a desire to be in charge. In fact, I DON'T want to be in charge, but I often get put in charge anyway. I don't want to be the center of attention, but I often end up there anyway. It's like I say, "Don't elect me for this task," but people do it anyway. It doesn't bother me when people are late unless it's very excessive and causing a huge problem for others. I'm very adaptable and flexible. I don't need a schedule for "everything" but it helps me to get things done if I have a skeletal outline of what I'm doing, but I also leave room for flexibility or sudden bursts of spontaneity or maybe a little down time. I need down time. I am able to handle surprises.

    I think the "J" manifest for me in that it gives me the ability to carry out what I have imagined, what I have planned. It has little to do with the way I treat other people. I have expectations for myself that I would never put on anyone else.

    Well said, @fia

    I think for me it is much like that. I often feel overwhelmed by all of the things I'm supposed to do and need to get done and I don't want to let people down when they are counting on me and I don't want to do a haphazard job, but I never make other people feel like they are under the gun. I am told by people who work with me that I am very approachable and put people at ease.

    I also think I'm very perceiver dominant, very observant, I am not a judger of people, either and I completely agree with this:
    I feel that I am very much a perceiver dominant, which a Ni-dom actually is. I don't feel much like a judger and don't tend to draw conclusions about individual people. I guess I do form generalized theories, but even when I express those with some certitude, I almost never experience a feeling of certitude.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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    Ignore the Myers-Briggs definition of 'Judging' which is about structure and organization. It deviates from the use of 'Judging' in the works of Jungian Typology and is more based on horoscope-esque behaviourist stereotypes developed to make MBTI more popular and accessible to the masses (by making a quick and easy test)

    The J in INFJ just denotes that the Judging function, Feeling, is Extroverted. That's it. Because you're a Perceiving dominant (Ni), you're not going to see the same connotations of Judging dominant types like ENTJ (Te) as your natural, most comfortable state is observing and perceiving the subject. It's contemplative rather than directive.
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  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I almost never experience a feeling of certitude.
    This seems more like an Ne trait to me, though I'm certainly not trying to suggest that you don't use Ni.

    Because Ni is convergent and tries to reduce to a singularity, it usually presents as very certain of it's hunches/ideas, compared to Ne's divergent nature which can be uncertain of a single point of view since it wants to see it from all angles and thus can lead to perpetual indecision.

  7. #7
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Chainsaw View Post
    This seems more like an Ne trait to me, though I'm certainly not trying to suggest that you don't use Ni.

    Because Ni is convergent and tries to reduce to a singularity, it usually presents as very certain of it's hunches/ideas, compared to Ne's divergent nature which can be uncertain of a single point of view since it wants to see it from all angles and thus can lead to perpetual indecision.
    I've considered ENFP and INFP as possible personality types, although I see a more detached, structured nature than my Fi-dom family. I mostly identify with Jung's Ni-dom descriptions, although I am less certain than Ni-doms in general. I identify with the Jung descriptions, but not entirely with the MBTI descriptions that rely far more on Fe and social involvement than is necessarily true for actual Ni-doms.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Chainsaw View Post
    Ignore the Myers-Briggs definition of 'Judging' which is about structure and organization. It deviates from the use of 'Judging' in the works of Jungian Typology and is more based on horoscope-esque behaviourist stereotypes developed to make MBTI more popular and accessible to the masses (by making a quick and easy test)

    The J in INFJ just denotes that the Judging function, Feeling, is Extroverted. That's it. Because you're a Perceiving dominant (Ni), you're not going to see the same connotations of Judging dominant types like ENTJ (Te) as your natural, most comfortable state is observing and perceiving the subject. It's contemplative rather than directive.
    Yes. I just love how you put this. You said what I wanted to say, only you said it more succinctly, so thanks.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I am outwardly a bit disordered but internally organized. Therefore, I find it distressing when people want me to restructure something internally on short notice without adequate reasoning for why or time given first to process it. It's also why it takes me a few minutes to avoid outwardly showing frustration when something important to me (plans or something I had looked forward to) is altered or cancelled.

    I tend to enjoy a clean workspace and living area, but am more likely to have a good clean up every few days, rather than properly maintaining order at all times. I usually have a good sense of where things are among some disorder, so don't like them being rearranged.Most of my interests involve paper, which makes it difficult to keep everything in order without spending a lot of time keeping up with it all. I'm easygoing about a lot of things, but every now and then I can get unreasonably attached to a certain way of doing things, even though I could adjust over time and I ultimately may even like that way better.

    I prefer to not be controlled, although I don't mind people taking the lead in decision making if I don't feel too invested either way. Career wise, I have no hankering to manage, but I do need autonomy and freedom to do my own thing, especially if I am likely to be at odds with people about procedure or philosophy. If I can't do my own thing, I probably will look for a situation that is a better fit. I have never really identified with the collaborative part of the INFJ description, because if I have a strong vision of what I want something to be, I find it hard to accommodate other people's ways of doing things, yet also do not wish to be a controlling tyrant. For that reason, I avoid committees, or look for a role that is self-contained, and can be a piece fitting into the larger whole. I can be pushy at times about advice or over opinionated (usually with people I know well), although I am more conscious of it now.

    I don't like emotional surprises and therefore tend toward familiar habits and watching before engaging, to a fault at times. I don't listen well to someone who doesn't seem to have considered more obvious potential problems and addressed them first. I'm great at improvising externally, but not internally, so I avoid situations that require me to do so regularly. I'm quite comfortable being transparent and open about fairly private things, as long as there is a reason for sharing and they have already been processed. However, I do resent people trying to force their way into my internal thoughts or experiences if I have invited them to do so.

    I think a lot of people would think I was quite accommodating and maybe even a little scattered (I get overall impressions of things, but am poor with exact details, either spoken or written) and usually unless I know someone well, they will not see my more uncensored J ways.

    I am a list maker, but generally don't enjoy adhering to an exact schedule. As a teacher, I like improvising and having the freedom to borrow from one subject to make time for another, or move subjects around in the day a little bit.

    I tend to avoid making commitments socially if I don't have to (like leaving my options open for how I am feeling at the time and what mix of people are there, how badly I'm needed or not, if it would inconvenience anyone if I didn't show, etc), even though I would be pleased to hang out with a group of people on the spur of the moment and sometimes I don't mind having a get together time nailed down, particularly if it is just me and one other person and we are both busy people. If people cancel out at the last minute more than twice though, I usually don't prioritize for them, or commit to any plans with them, because I don't like it when people are unreliable (feel it says to the other party that their convenience is more important than the other's).

    I am rarely late, although if I know that the people I am meeting with are chronically late, I will plan to show up late. I don't get upset about other's lateness, except when it affects other people/there is an event that starts at a certain time that is important/I am not expecting lateness. Mostly it's the surprise element of lateness and how to handle my own reactions to it that annoy me. I get mad at myself when I can't adapt in the moment, because I want to be seen as being a reasonable person who can take things in stride and sometimes my internal reactions are not really logical (nor are my final feelings on the matter), even though they are very real at the time.

    I like EXXJ types, but sometimes am frustrated about their inability to give up control and even want to oversee me. I admire the STJ ability to order their environment and know where everything is, although I am unable to do it myself. I like the NTJ tendency towards longterm order in matters of planning/business/career/finances. My own finances aren't bad, but are not especially ordered. I'm always uncertain of where I have various bits of information and what I have invested where. When they ask those questions at the bank about your last credit card purchase or debit card activity to verify identity, I rarely remember. In many ways, I feel like I am on the scatter-brained end of the J spectrum.

    I have working theories as well about many people, but they are rarely conclusive pronouncements. It's like a file folder that can always contain new information, but I do feel a need for some basic categorization so that I have a sense of how I wish to relate to them or what I might need to expect, since I'm not as good at addressing the fallout from not knowing right in the moment. People fascinate them, so I like studying them, and when you study something, often some organization to one's research is useful for making possible observations and hypotheses from the findings.
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  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I identify with the Jung descriptions, but not entirely with the MBTI descriptions that rely far more on Fe and social involvement than is necessarily true for actual Ni-doms.
    The MBTI descriptions are very confusing and not worth your time if you're looking to find out why you think the way you do -- or rather which functions are driving your thought process. A lot has been written on Fe and Fi but if you strip away social involvement and write briefly about it I guess we can say that Fe is an objective value system while Fi is subjective. Fe perceives what the value of something (read: other than a subject's intrinsic usability which the thinking functions would assess) from a third person's perspective. Fi sees the value of something only through it's own relationship to the subject. "What's this worth to me?"; It's subjective.

    You can see how from this Myers Briggs extrapolated the social presentations: with Fe seeming to more naturally understand the nuances of interaction more easily, but also being more accommodating of other people, even to the extent of self-sacrifice. It see's things from that bird's eye view, detached from itself, and Fi users usually being more self-absorbed (Note: I didn't say selfish - they are different things) and more concerned with individuality. It doesn't make it a hard and fast rule, though!
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