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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Ni working with Fe and Ti produce a unique prespective quite unlike any other.
    .........
    Unique AND quite unlike any other
    Ti fail and anti-success
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    Can you clarify your terms, please, @PeaceBaby, especially as you finish up mentioning Fi and INTJ? I think most INTJs would call their tertiary Fi "strong" but by that they mean "intense" -- intense enough to compete with or interfere with their secondary function, Te; with the result they *mistake* the Fi for being developed.
    I agree with that. Emotions are intense though. Functions are not.

    As the theory goes, the tertiary function is not repressed (as is the inferior). So, it's always "on" in the background, certainly. But the visual I like to use in my own mind regarding awareness of the tertiary is like a lightbulb not quite fully screwed into the socket. It flickers on and off again, and mostly you notice it by the inconstancy of brightness. And if it's either on or off for longer stretches, you become less aware of its presence overall. (Even though it is technically always "on".)

    As you get older, the bulb is more fully engaged (someone must have gotten a stool and tried to tighten it up haha.) But that doesn't mean it is within our conscious control. For me personally, with Si in my tertiary position, I can in one moment recall an impressive amount of information on a topic of interest and in the next, can't think of the name for a can opener. "Hubby, can you pass me that thing-a-ma-doo that opens cans?" It's generally not under voluntary control and it's not constant.

    I do not know if it ever gets to that point of constancy. If it did, we would all kind of seem the same at a certain point, if we lived long enough.

    So, yes - I agree that there's conflation of terms here.

    I think (and others have noted and complained) that immature INTJs are often OVERconfident in their abilities, due to the synergy of Ni and Te.
    I sometimes think that in *interpersonal* matters, inexperienced INFJ have a similar blind spot: they try to check the theories developed by their Ni, but they check it with Ti, not Te: which means that if their Ni reports something that is "true for that INFJ" then the INFJ will feel that their Ni instinct is TRUTH(TM). But if the INFJ had used Te, to look for external examples, they might find that their Ni had jumped the gun.
    Yes, but they need to use Fe not Te. And they are to turn it on themselves rather than more exclusively on others (which is the same as you saying "check with Te" but they can only use what they functionally possess). Je by nature is scanning the outer environment, looking for all of the outer things that are inefficient or incorrect. Basically, from a simplistic perspective you have to try to prove yourself wrong as much as prove other people wrong. (And I in the opposite orientation, have to prove myself right rather than let other people be right).

    Ni dom and Si dom both experience what they think as TRUTH(TM) and go out finding data to support that vision. I call this process cherry-picking. I think as long as you think of TRUTH(TM) more like truth (little letters, no trademark) then everything should work out ok. Never be so invested in one TRUTH(TM) that it never gets scrutinized.

    Problem here too is Se repression. It's why I think Ni doms should go ride roller-coasters and engage with life in such a way as it forces a moment-by-moment participation once in a while. It puts new grist in the Ni mill. I think Ene's martial arts does that for her and uumlau's dancing does that for him. It makes them both feel so much happier and complete. It's a good thing.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Let me begin by saying that my purpose in posting the original post was not to prove my statement right but to hear the thoughts of others. So, I ask anyone reading this to not automatically assume that I will defend my original statement. It's a thought I appreciate getting feedback on it. I merely want you to share your understanding with me. In a multitude of counselors there is wisdom.

    Thanks for your input @PeaceBaby

    Dominant function A working with auxiliary function B and tertiary function C produce a unique perspective quite unlike any other. I mean, what does that even mean?
    It means that the particular line-up exists in that particular type. Yes, the same could be said about any type. Yes, each type has its own particular way of seeing, but I was only referring to the one that is supposed to be mine. I am attempting to understand my type. I want to understand the inner workings of an INFJ brain. (and I'm not referring to the biological functions, for any smarty pants reading who decides to inform me of how synapsis are relayed and so on and so forth. )


    I don't know if you've thought of it like this, but I am wondering if you've noticed the pattern that mostly Ni doms talk about their tertiary function as being strong / developed, not so much other types. By definition, a tertiary function is weak. That's why it is called the tertiary.
    Actually, I have thought of it, and I think that age, development, background and individuality play a huge role in it with any type. To the best of my understanding, according to Nardi, tertiary functions and inferior functions do not remain inadequate throughout our entire lives. They may remain inferior to our dominant auxiliary functions but that are there and they do develop and strengthen as we age. So, unless we plan on staying 26 forever, we should see some tertiary functions begin to grow stronger in the third and fourth decades of our lives. In other words, a 60 year old of any type should be more reasonable, balanced, etc. than a 16 year old. (Still, having worked with the elderly population, I'm aware that some people never mature, they just get old.)

    @grey_beard I was hoping you'd stop in and actually looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. Thank you so much.

    I think (and others have noted and complained) that immature INTJs are often OVERconfident in their abilities, due to the synergy of Ni and Te.
    I think the key word is "immature." I know at least one mature INTJ who's Fi is very developed. I wouldn't really call it weak. He is confident but also quite humble for an INTJ.

    I sometimes think that in *interpersonal* matters, inexperienced INFJ have a similar blind spot: they try to check the theories developed by their Ni, but they check it with Ti, not Te: which means that if their Ni reports something that is "true for that INFJ" then the INFJ will feel that their Ni instinct is TRUTH(TM). But if the INFJ had used Te, to look for external examples, they might find that their Ni had jumped the gun.
    Absolutely. And again, I think the key word there is "inexperienced." A properly developed, mature and sane INFJ will likely ask for the advice and input of others. I often run my ideas by a multitude of people before acting upon it. I'll discuss it my inner circle, an ISFJ, an ISTJ, an ISTP, an INTJ, an ENFJ and my INFP friend. Each one will see it from a different angle. I'll also research it and gather a body of evidences and checks and balances, much like I'm doing here. I didn't post the original statement because I believe it to be emphatically true but because I wanted to run it by a system of checks and balances. I wanted to see it from a variety of angles and view points. I may really believe in an idea or a theory, really think I'm right, but then I realize that yes, I am fallible and likely there is something I'm overlooking, so I conference.

    Just a hazy guesstimate, based on my Te, and lurking on threads. Absolutely not offense intended, and any corrections of ME positively encouraged, if not outright solicited.
    None taken. I want to learn. I am forever a student. There are still many things about MBTI that I don't know.

    (INTJs sure can be nitpicky, can't they?)
    I think we are all nitpicky in our own ways. We're just not all nitpicky about the same things.

    On the whole though I have seen the creative intuition of INFJs put on some amazing fireworks displays...
    hehe...and they didn't get blown up despite their inferior Se?


    @EcK
    Ti fail and anti-success
    Okay, funny one...it is only a fail if no one offers input. The intent was to see what others thought and since people have shared their thoughts, it's a success.
    And aren't you unique, too? I mean aren't you both alike and unlike all others? Or...do you have a clone?! If you do, share your technology. Don't be selfish with it. I need a good clone to help me get all my work done.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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  4. #14
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @PeaceBaby I must have been composing the above post as you were posting. I actually love your paragraph of the light bulb analogy. I think we are saying many of the same things. I like the way you said them better.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I agree with that. Emotions are intense though. Functions are not.

    As the theory goes, the tertiary function is not repressed (as is the inferior). So, it's always "on" in the background, certainly. But the visual I like to use in my own mind regarding awareness of the tertiary is like a lightbulb not quite fully screwed into the socket. It flickers on and off again, and mostly you notice it by the inconstancy of brightness. And if it's either on or off for longer stretches, you become less aware of its presence overall. (Even though it is technically always "on".)

    As you get older, the bulb is more fully engaged (someone must have gotten a stool and tried to tighten it up haha.) But that doesn't mean it is within our conscious control. For me personally, with Si in my tertiary position, I can in one moment recall an impressive amount of information on a topic of interest and in the next, can't think of the name for a can opener. "Hubby, can you pass me that thing-a-ma-doo that opens cans?" It's generally not under voluntary control and it's not constant.

    I do not know if it ever gets to that point of constancy. If it did, we would all kind of seem the same at a certain point, if we lived long enough.

    So, yes - I agree that there's conflation of terms here.
    Wow. *Love* the simile. Happen to disagree about a *minor* issue, though:

    I do not know if it ever gets to that point of constancy. If it did, we would all kind of seem the same at a certain point, if we lived long enough.

    I suggest, rather, that what happens, is that the secondary and tertiary skills "catch up" to the dominant skill, in that they are no longer markedly inferior, for most of the day-to-day tasks of life. But the preference remains (as even athletes who develop remarkable dexterity with both hands, hat tip to @Ene and martial arts, still retain their original 'handedness'; or as even switch-hitters in professional baseball, still prefer throwing/catching with one hand or the other. The upshot being that for particularly demanding tasks/situations, or under stress, a person will "revert" to their first function, as it is better in synaptical ("mental-type-muscle?") memory, and has a better "top end" (i.e., e.g.,
    the theoretical top speed of a car).



    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Yes, but they need to use Fe not Te. And they are to turn it on themselves rather than more exclusively on others (which is the same as you saying "check with Te" but they can only use what they functionally possess). Je by nature is scanning the outer environment, looking for all of the outer things that are inefficient or incorrect. Basically, from a simplistic perspective you have to try to prove yourself wrong as much as prove other people wrong. (And I in the opposite orientation, have to prove myself right rather than let other people be right).
    Just D@mn. (TM). Skewered. You are of course utterly correct, as most often it seems Ni (maybe moreso for the INFJ than the INTJ) is about relationships and social situations, rather than operations-research and logistical planning/world domination.

    As I've said *many* times before, I'm going to have to stop underestimating you INFPs...! (Not meant to sound haughty, as every time I get Fi-b*tchslapped (hit in the face with a wet mackerel, so to speak) by an INFP, I instinctively recognize, even before my mind has assimilated the shock of the impact of the fish, that the essential elements of the INFPs assertion, are not only correct, but serve to "nitpick" me in what I would have believed to be my stronghold. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Ni dom and Si dom both experience what they think as TRUTH(TM) and go out finding data to support that vision. I call this process cherry-picking. I think as long as you think of TRUTH(TM) more like truth (little letters, no trademark) then everything should work out ok. Never be so invested in one TRUTH(TM) that it never gets scrutinized.
    That depends, though. In my descriptions before of the INTJ's Ni, as a light shining in different directions on a widget, to reveal the hidden structures and form in multiple dimensions...
    I noted the Ni is good at capturing the essentials *for a particular purpose*; and the fact that if the Ni feels it has a sufficient match to something already in its database, it *stops searching*. This is not the same thing as stopping "way too soon" which *is* the hallmark of the immature INTJ. @Ene, can you comment on any analogy to the INFJ's use of Ni?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Problem here too is Se repression. It's why I think Ni doms should go ride roller-coasters and engage with life in such a way as it forces a moment-by-moment participation once in a while. It puts new grist in the Ni mill. I think Ene's martial arts does that for her and uumlau's dancing does that for him. It makes them both feel so much happier and complete. It's a good thing.
    Ouch. Skewered again: but gratefully noted that you gave real-life examples of other members, whom I can either reach out to or model / come up with my own adaptation about.
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    Junior Member INFlanJ78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    The reason I brought this subject up is that I read all of these descriptions about how INFJs are complex and deep and prone to creativity and usually are highly successful in academia. This sounds like high intelligence to me. Yet, people are often surprised when they find out how "smart" I am or that I am a "deep" thinker. I wonder if the auxiliary Fe disguises INFJ intelligence to point that people don't believe it when they see it.

    For example, I had a friend say to me one time, "You don't look or act smart, but you are."

    "What?!" I asked her, "What do you think a smart person looks like anyway?"

    All she could tell me was that smart people weren't so "graceful." I thought that was absurd, but she had a stereo-type of intelligence and I apparently, despite my IQ, level of education, multiple languages and varying creative abilities, didn't fit it.

    So, now I'm just thinking off the cuff, so to speak. If INFJ's primary function is Ni, a dominance they share only with INTJs, and this Ni is considered responsible for great intelligence [or is it?], then why could the Fe+Ti function not equal a very analytical brain that not only can convince people of how much they know but how much they care as well? I know you've heard the old saying, "People [for the most part] don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." If experience has taught me anything it is that people, in general, are far more willing to listen to my theories if they know the theories have a practical application that will somehow improve their lives.

    According to INFJ - Psychology Wiki [which happens to be just one random site I got from googling]

    AND



    A site called NF Musicians lists INFJ's among the The Genius of INFJ The iNtuitive Musician musical geniuses.

    I know this is only the scantest of resources, nor am I making a claim. However, I am asking, "Is there a sufficient basis to link creative genius with INFJs?" [I'm not saying there's not for other types, either. So, if you're not an INFJ I'm not saying you're not intelligent or creative. I'm just focusing on this one type at the moment.]

    A few years ago, during the pursuit of my master's degree, I researched IQ tests and one of the things I found is that IQ tests cannot measure creativity. One source discussed the possibility that a person with an IQ of 120 who also possessed an uncanny ability in art, music, language or any of the other fields that IQ tests can't normally measure was every bit the genius, and sometimes more so, than those who possessed higher IQ scores. If we take intelligence to be more than the ability to solve logic-based puzzles, then could it not be possible that INFJs [INFPs, too, but that's another discussion] are, indeed, as bright as any of their "thinking" counterparts, given that they are from the same background with the same amount of education? However, I digressed from my original idea, which is this. While it has been said that INFJs are the most NT of the NFs, could it not be that Fe+Ti equips INFJs both in the world of people and academia? Does having a warm disposition negate one's intellectual capacity? [Even as I write this, I'm thinking of a brilliant ENFP who is as warm as she can be, and comes across as goofy beyond belief, yet, she is truly brilliant.]

    Haha..is it the Ti that even makes me ask such questions in the first place? Is it the inner ISTP acting up again? [she's a sneak, slips in when I'm not watching.]

    I look forward to hearing your ideas on this posts and thank you for sharing.
    Yes, I agree! And many people tend to completely separate intellectual intelligence from creative intelligence. They assume that if you are "book smart", you can't be creative. In that respect, as an INFJ, I feel well-rounded or balanced most of the time.

    Kind of off topic maybe, but... For example, I can be knowledgeable AND a goofball! In fact, sometimes it helps me be a funnier goofball?! LOL I can understand something well, yet find the humor in it.
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  7. #17
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Re: "Ni working with Fe and Ti produce a unique prespective quite unlike any other."

    I feel like this sentence could be about any functional combination:

    Dominant function A working with auxiliary function B and tertiary function C produce a unique perspective quite unlike any other. I mean, what does that even mean?
    I think this is true, and I would expect profiles for each type to include some specialized, yet general statements like that for the purpose of pep-talking each type.
    @PeaceBaby I should add that I haven't read the other type descriptions from whichever source that statement about INFJs came from. If they don't pep talk all the types, then that would be really lame. It would also attract a bunch of arrogant weirdos to the INFJ type, so if they are only saying it about INFJs, then I hope they stop.
    Last edited by labyrinthine; 01-31-2015 at 11:13 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Skippy,
    I think that's a good question and I'm glad you asked.

    I'm no pro, but I would say that it isn't any one specific function responsible for logic, but rather the way that they combine to form the whole package, so to speak. We can't assume that not having Ti or Te as a dominant or auxiliary function devoids a person of adequate reasoning abilities, especially considering that some of the world's great thinkers have also been NFs. It could simply be, in your case, that you are used to communicating with Sensors. Do you know your own functional stack yet? Are you an STP, STJ, NTJ, NTP, etc.?

    Also, take into consideration the context of your communication with the NFs. Not all NFs are the same. Some put more emphasis on personal values, others on ideas, concepts and theories, others on possibilities and discoveries. A lot depends on whether they are Fe or Fi dominate, Ne or Ni dominant and on their tertiary functional placing. I'd love to hear/read some other people's thoughts on this.
    Thanks for information. My research indicates me as NFJ because of the function, but I struggle with Fe and Fi since most websites uses same words to describe them like independence, harmony, community, self-focus, and authenticity. I value all of them so it doesn't help narrow what I'm looking for. I think I'm not understanding how each function works. I *think* I am Fe by nature even though I show Fi tendency from time to time. For example, in a conflict I'm willing to sacrifice my feelings to keep the harmony because I don't think it's worth to have awkward and tense moments. I maintain self-control instead of expressing my emotions in public. It may lead to internal struggles, and if it does, I question whether my feelings are legitimate through confirmation from other people. Do I have the right to feel this way? What caused me to become upset? I believe that one should evaluate their emotions before expressing them. I look for reasons to support my emotions and if I'm not able to find any my emotions have no reason to escalate or be expressed. *this is pretty much my typical thought process for conflict or stress situations* I'm not sure if this is my personal value expressing itself or my Fe showing, lol.

    I'm more direct and sarcastic in my daily interaction with people. Typically I'm very talkative, playful, opinionated, and respectful of others. I enjoy being with people and supporting others in their jobs like taking care of tedious work. I don't mind doing that kind of things. I'm team-oriented and love to get to know others. I value deep relationships, smaller group of friends, and quality time with people. I'm sensitive so to understand from an NFs perspective isn't hard but I prefer communicating with my head rather my heart. Talking with my heart isn't a problem in deep conversation but head is more for my daily interaction. It makes more sense that way. I knew quite a few NFs (mostly NFPs) that talk with their heart in daily conversation and it leads to disagreement.

    I hope this information helps you more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skippythecat View Post
    I hope this information helps you more.
    *sigh* Post it here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/forum44/

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skippythecat View Post
    Thanks for information. My research indicates me as NFJ because of the function, but I struggle with Fe and Fi since most websites uses same words to describe them like independence, harmony, community, self-focus, and authenticity. I value all of them so it doesn't help narrow what I'm looking for. I think I'm not understanding how each function works. I *think* I am Fe by nature even though I show Fi tendency from time to time. For example, in a conflict I'm willing to sacrifice my feelings to keep the harmony because I don't think it's worth to have awkward and tense moments. I maintain self-control instead of expressing my emotions in public. It may lead to internal struggles, and if it does, I question whether my feelings are legitimate through confirmation from other people. Do I have the right to feel this way? What caused me to become upset? I believe that one should evaluate their emotions before expressing them. I look for reasons to support my emotions and if I'm not able to find any my emotions have no reason to escalate or be expressed. *this is pretty much my typical thought process for conflict or stress situations* I'm not sure if this is my personal value expressing itself or my Fe showing, lol.

    I'm more direct and sarcastic in my daily interaction with people. Typically I'm very talkative, playful, opinionated, and respectful of others. I enjoy being with people and supporting others in their jobs like taking care of tedious work. I don't mind doing that kind of things. I'm team-oriented and love to get to know others. I value deep relationships, smaller group of friends, and quality time with people. I'm sensitive so to understand from an NFs perspective isn't hard but I prefer communicating with my head rather my heart. Talking with my heart isn't a problem in deep conversation but head is more for my daily interaction. It makes more sense that way. I knew quite a few NFs (mostly NFPs) that talk with their heart in daily conversation and it leads to disagreement.

    I hope this information helps you more.
    Hey, Skippy, thanks. Hmmm...right now it is hard to determine your preferences. Actually, it might be a good idea to start a type me thread, following Kullervo's link. I imagine you'd get quite a bit of input. I think there are even some questions posted that people can answer to help others help them narrow down their type preferences.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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