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  1. #21
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    That was very disrespectful of you.

    You can criticize ideas of those you disagree with, but suggesting they ought not even be read is unsporstmanlike conduct which ought to have no place in reasonable discussions. If someone makes a false claim you can only know this after you have read it and analyzed it. Not before. This justifies the claim that attempting to prevent a proposition from being read is inappropriate for discussions concerning exchange of ideas.
    Well, I usually agree with that.
    I read what you said, though. It was both incorrect and insulting. Perhaps more importantly, it was unhelpful. This is how most of what you write is, and it gets the results that incorrect, insulting, unhelpful material usually gets. Something to be avoided.

    So, I'm inclined to tell people that they'd be better off just ignoring what you say. They have will, they don't have to listen to me, they can read your post anyway. I'm just warning them that they will feel like they wasted their time at best.

    Really, your advice was barely advice. You basically called the situation hopeless and suggested running or hiding. Not helpful.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I usually agree with that.
    I read what you said, though. It was both incorrect and insulting. Perhaps more importantly, it was unhelpful. This is how most of what you write is, and it gets the results that incorrect, insulting, unhelpful material usually gets. Something to be avoided.

    So, I'm inclined to tell people that they'd be better off just ignoring what you say. They have will, they don't have to listen to me, they can read your post anyway. I'm just warning them that they will feel like they wasted their time at best.

    Really, your advice was barely advice. You basically called the situation hopeless and suggested running or hiding. Not helpful.
    Let me decode this a little.

    Incorrect=Disagrees with your values.

    Insulting=You feel insulted because of your emotional relationship to what was said.

    Unhelpful-Does not help you feel good.

    This is all you said so far. Time to tap into inferior Te. Chop chop lets make an argument.

    With respect to your earlier claim, I speak the truth. Don't want to hear it, fine lets go to your post instead or that of your kindred spirits on INFPgc, but better leave the real thinkers in peace!

    Boy! Lest our fragile feelings be trampled upon.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  3. #23
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Not a thing you can do. Just pretend to agree with their values. If the F in question has a well developed T, you can reason with them. Just ignore their emotional reaction for the time being, if they really have a good T they will appreciate your point eventually. After their passions tame down and they get around to think. But with most Fs, if you cannot avoid dealing with them, just lay low and be polite, you're walking a minefield.

    If you're getting mashed, remember, Henry Kissinger said 'if you want to win someone back, never disagree with them'. Not necessarily that you should try to 'win them back' or be on good terms with them, thats too much of a headache no doubt, just to get them off your back agree with everything they say. Smile. Say it gently. Remember, to Fs it doesn't really matter what you say, only how you say it, so don't be afraid to make blatantly false claims or contradict what you said 5 seconds ago. They will hardly notice, and if they do and have an emotional reaction about it, even that will be overshadowed by the 'gentle and agreeable' way you said it. Remember, to an F, truth doesn't really matter, it is all about what 'feels' like harmony. Doesn't have to be genuine harmony or long-lasting, or with any good potential, just in the moment it must feel 'good' and like harmony to the F. In short, it doesn't even need to make any sense, it just has to feel 'good' to an F, and I believe the above shows how to induce such a feeling within an F.

    *Mental note: notice how if you were to come to an F with your problem, they would make no effort to make sense of it or help you solve it. They would just keep on saying, its okay! You're great! You did the right thing! Everything will be alright!

    (Even though all of those comments are complete non-sense often)

    This is what they want to hear. To a T it sounds ridiculous to have these things said as they are filtered through our critical thinking faculties, they don't filter anything. They just take it for face value. Tell them 'you're great' they buy it wholesale. Their emotions are directly influenced by what is said, not by their thoughts on what is said.
    Okay, Bluey, once again...has said some great things and some absolute crap.

    Let's deal with the absolute crap first: Fs do realize when a person is inconsistent. TOTALLY!!!!!! At least I do. And it pisses me off because I think it is UNFAIR.

    Dude, be consistent or fart!!!! Because farting makes more sense than opening your mouth - and it's better for your health than trying to pull a fast one on me. (Not talking directly to Bluey, btw, I mean that is what I think about anyone who tries to pull a fast one on me).

    Usually, I don't make a point of letting the other person know that I think they are inconsistent. An SJ will insist he's right; and SP will fart and not care; and NT will rationalize as best he can to make sure you really do think he was consistent even though he's full of crap; and an NF will get all pissy, start getting upset and say you don't respect their opinion. (Okay, that's totally stereotypical crap, but I'm exaggerating to prove a point). So I just roll my eyes and go for a walk - but that does not mean I did not notice.

    OF COURSE I try to uplift people. But if they are talking crap, I will tell them that in a diplomatic way. Inside I think, "YOU DUMB FART!!!" but I say, "Okay, let's try that again in real English." Then they know I'm getting kind of frustrated and pissed off.

    Sure, I want a good feeling. I'm not a bloody masochist like some people. <ahem> On the other hand, I will not totally accept crap just to keep the peace, or else I would not be posting this reaction.

    However, Bluey, we should not exaggerate. Some of your points were good. For example, I totally agree with your first assessment. Sometimes, when Fi takes over, I do act relatively unreasonable. My husband usually susses out -can I reason with this chick right now or not. If not, he goes away, and I think a while. I go inside and realize, "Carolyn, you were being a complete nut and a total shithead." When he comes back and tries to reason after my feelings have calmed down, I am actually MORE rational than I ever am - that is, after an argument. I guess my Te is like an emergency damper, and I act more rational even than when my Ne is really active. I need time, dude, I just need time. Gimme the time, and I will see the logic and say, "Alllllllrighty then, time to act a little bit sane, and accept that this is just a fact."

    Here's a concrete example: Husband comes up to me and asks me if we can invest money in a certain way. First reaction, "ARE YOU INSANE?!?!?!?!? We have to worry about getting food on the table, dumbass!!! NO!" He just leaves me alone and says okay. Then I turn inward. Think about it. Hmm, do I know a better way to invest? No. Is it potentially profitable? Yes. Let's do a cost-benefit analysis. Do we have a lot to lose? Not really. What if I needed help, would he help me? Shit. Maybe not, because I was such a total ass back there. DAMN IT DAMN IT - okay, fine...Here's your money. But you are dead if I do not get it back by XYZ date with interest.

    Same thing goes with personal behavior. We have a total argument and I could just leap off the next bridge. Seriously - okay, not seriously, but you know what I mean.

    Thank god I have tertiary Te, or I would have died years ago. Anyways, so after the heat is over, it kicks in and I think, "HELLO?!?!?!?! What is wrong with you?! Stop acting like such an emotional basketcase. It is just an argument. And anyway, two people are always at fault when there is an argument - that means the other person and you. So stop being a dumbass and start acting like a normal, rational human being." People need to leave me alone so that my Te can kick in. Cause once it does, we're in the clear. But if you keep pushing, and if you keep haranging, and if you keep bitching about how irrational I am - I'll just GAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Leysing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Not a thing you can do. Just pretend to agree with their values. If the F in question has a well developed T, you can reason with them. Just ignore their emotional reaction for the time being, if they really have a good T they will appreciate your point eventually. After their passions tame down and they get around to think. But with most Fs, if you cannot avoid dealing with them, just lay low and be polite, you're walking a minefield.

    If you're getting mashed, remember, Henry Kissinger said 'if you want to win someone back, never disagree with them'. Not necessarily that you should try to 'win them back' or be on good terms with them, thats too much of a headache no doubt, just to get them off your back agree with everything they say. Smile. Say it gently. Remember, to Fs it doesn't really matter what you say, only how you say it, so don't be afraid to make blatantly false claims or contradict what you said 5 seconds ago. They will hardly notice, and if they do and have an emotional reaction about it, even that will be overshadowed by the 'gentle and agreeable' way you said it. Remember, to an F, truth doesn't really matter, it is all about what 'feels' like harmony. Doesn't have to be genuine harmony or long-lasting, or with any good potential, just in the moment it must feel 'good' and like harmony to the F. In short, it doesn't even need to make any sense, it just has to feel 'good' to an F, and I believe the above shows how to induce such a feeling within an F.

    *Mental note: notice how if you were to come to an F with your problem, they would make no effort to make sense of it or help you solve it. They would just keep on saying, its okay! You're great! You did the right thing! Everything will be alright!

    (Even though all of those comments are complete non-sense often)

    This is what they want to hear. To a T it sounds ridiculous to have these things said as they are filtered through our critical thinking faculties, they don't filter anything. They just take it for face value. Tell them 'you're great' they buy it wholesale. Their emotions are directly influenced by what is said, not by their thoughts on what is said.
    This is true...

    (...if you are dealing with a very immature F whose mind is not very balanced.
    Surprise: Not all Fs are like that!)

    I can honestly say this doesn't apply to me at all. I'm an F.

    Well developed T is not required because of T superiority, but because T and F tend to balance each other. Too much F and too little T = bad, too much T and too little F = equally bad.

  5. #25
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leysing View Post
    This is true...

    (...if you are dealing with a very immature F whose mind is not very balanced.
    Surprise: Not all Fs are like that!)

    I can honestly say this doesn't apply to me at all. I'm an F.

    Well developed T is not required because of T superiority, but because T and F tend to balance each other. Too much F and too little T = bad, too much T and too little F = equally bad.
    Now why can't Bluey make a logical argument like that, huh??? I mean this makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than this passionate crusade against feeling.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  6. #26
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Now why can't Bluey make a logical argument like that, huh??? I mean this makes a hell of a lot more sense to me than this passionate crusade against feeling.
    You overlooked it. It is written in the beginning of my post that if an F has a well-developed T, you need not even worry about it. (Ajblaise's can put his concerns aside). As their emotional reaction will wear off sooner or later, and because they have access to the Thinking faculty they will be able to see your rationale. Clearly, blaise was concerned with 'not this kind of' Fs, as his depiction of their emotional reactions evince.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #27
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You overlooked it. It is written in the beginning of my post that if an F has a well-developed T, you need not even worry about it. (Ajblaise's can put his concerns aside). As their emotional reaction will wear off sooner or later, and because they have access to the Thinking faculty they will be able to see your rationale. Clearly, blaise was concerned with 'not this kind of' Fs, as his depiction of their emotional reactions evince.
    Granted - but you mentioned it as an aside, not an important premise. I think you should have mentioned it more. I did notice, however - and I said you were correct in that way (see above).
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  8. #28
    Senior Member edel weiss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Sometimes I really have a hard time calming down NF's, or F's in general. Saying "chill out" or "calm down" certainly hasn't worked well, neither does using logic sometimes, but I have used cold hard logic to calm people down before. Do I try talking more slowly and in a soft voice, maybe I'm talking to fast?

    I argue with people a lot and with NF guys this is usually what can set them off, that or I'll make a joke and they get offended. And with girls, if they are crying, I am rendered completely useless no matter what I say it seems. It's like they have already made the decision they are going to cry and there is nothing I can do.
    You try to make your reasons clear to the NF. You tell them it was a joke, or that the argument wasn't meant to be taken personally. The thing is, (assuming you were being rational in the first place), they do see your oint of view, but it would take them some time to calm down and then accept it.

    Talking slowly would help. That technique could work with any upset person, not just NF's.

    I think that NF's do get upset easily, but they get over it with equal ease. I have an INFP for a best friend and I have to deal with a lot of moodiness and upsets. If I think I've made a mistake, I apologize, if not, I explain. And if I have to hear the same darned feelings over and over again, I tell her to just stuff it. (In nicer words). Now she tells me I've been categorized as the friend for intellectual stimulation, and there's somebody else she goes to for whining about her feelings.

  9. #29
    unscannable Tigerlily's Avatar
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    say nothing. walk away.
    Time is a delicate mistress.

  10. #30
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    I have to say that I found humorous Mr. Bluewing belief that strong f / weak T types are as animals: cognisant of emotions, but not meanings.

    I do agree that if the F in question has a well developed T, then reasoning is possible, even during the shitstorm of emotion (or maybe after a short cool down period ). If they're unreasonable, I've found, then telling straight lies may work in the short term, but if they're tipped off to insincerity, they're likely to remain long term angry at you. An example would be a lady that I know whom felt she was 'used'. She wasn't really used for anything (to me, a third party), but that was irrelevant: she hates this person to this very day. /shrug

    Regarding the "You are great!" segment and similar things, I hear this a lot from people. Strange! I never thought of it as anything but 'filler' or 'breaking the ice' type talk to mimic or substitute for friendship.

    It's my belief that most F types have a well developed T for their professional lives. Perhaps that doesn't translate well to personal lives?

    I've seen people's F (fi? fe?) absolutely take over their lives. A different coworker I knew would sleep with and adore whoever complimented her / spent time with her / whoever made her feel the best at the time. She went from working 60 hours a week to support herself and her kids to the exact opposite... and stayed that way for quite some time. I actually have no idea whatever happened to her, but I thought this was relevent.

    My long, rambling response is due to me initially feeling, "hey this mofo has no idea what he's talking about!" I then read, and reread, then reread all points to find where exactly he went wrong, then compared his points to my past experiences and came to realize that if he had many strong interactions with emotionally irrational people (and there are plenty!), then his views could easily be tainted!

    I hope I made some sense! <<love that emotocon

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