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  1. #121
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Just tell them their feelings are stupid and irrational. Works every time!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #122
    Senior Member Coeur's Avatar
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    Here's my two cents...
    If I'm upset at you, it is for one of two reasons:
    1. You hurt my feelings.
    2. You disrespected my values.
    [Obviously, there are times when it is a mixture of both.]
    If you hurt my feelings, I need a hug, a compliment, and an assurance that you value our friendship a lot. If you disrespected my values, you'd better appologize, or at least acknowledge my feelings and agree not to do it again.

    Explainations are okay so that I can see your point of view. You don't want me to think that you're a heartless monster. Excuses, however, are to be avoided. "I completely stepped on your values and treated you horribly. But I was just having a bad day. It isn't my fault." Yeah... that really doesn't work. There is no excuse for being a bad friend. In all cases, it is best to take the knife. I personally have a habit of taking at least part of the blame, even when it is the other person's fault.

    One thing I would like to say about disrespecting values: They're MY values. Not yours. It doesn't matter if YOU think that they're pointless or irrational. If you respect me and value our friendship, you will respect my boundaries, in the same way that I respect yours.

    Now, if I'm upset in GENERAL, not at you... I appreciate listening, input, hugs, and an emotional reaction to what I'm saying.
    Everybody needs love.

  3. #123
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coeur View Post
    Here's my two cents...
    If I'm upset at you, it is for one of two reasons:
    1. You hurt my feelings.
    2. You disrespected my values.
    [Obviously, there are times when it is a mixture of both.]
    If you hurt my feelings, I need a hug, a compliment, and an assurance that you value our friendship a lot. If you disrespected my values, you'd better appologize, or at least acknowledge my feelings and agree not to do it again.

    Explainations are okay so that I can see your point of view. You don't want me to think that you're a heartless monster. Excuses, however, are to be avoided. "I completely stepped on your values and treated you horribly. But I was just having a bad day. It isn't my fault." Yeah... that really doesn't work. There is no excuse for being a bad friend. In all cases, it is best to take the knife. I personally have a habit of taking at least part of the blame, even when it is the other person's fault.

    One thing I would like to say about disrespecting values: They're MY values. Not yours. It doesn't matter if YOU think that they're pointless or irrational. If you respect me and value our friendship, you will respect my boundaries, in the same way that I respect yours.
    Don't forget though friendships exist because you respect other people's values. Or not really, and I guess that's fine too. But if you are gonna judge others by how they perceive your values, be coherent.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Coeur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sytpg View Post
    Don't forget though friendships exist because you respect other people's values.
    Exactly my point. A friendship doesn't function properly without mutual respect.

    But if you are gonna judge others by how they perceive your values, be coherent.
    Of course. I'm always very clear and direct about how things affect me. Usually if someone does something to me that sets me off, they've REALLY screwed things up. For every friend that I've dropped, I've recieved a unanimous: "they deserved it" from everyone that I spoke to about it.
    Everybody needs love.

  5. #125
    Member tsumatachi_san's Avatar
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    Say you're sorry for upsetting them and ask how you did it (showing interest and concern for them), then decide if you think the reason is good enough to warrant an apology:
    - if so, apologise sincerely and maybe use comforting body language (hugging, placing a hand on their shoulder etc.)
    - if not, tell them exactly why you believe it does not need one (with every detail) an show your emotions to them. I think quite a few NFs are able to see the other side of the argument and should hopefully calm down after that, but if they don't, just walk away and contact them again later to ask how they are.

    That's just what I think would work/ has worked. The main thing is to show your own emotions in a composed way and be sincere.

  6. #126
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    I calm down my infp friend using logic first to make him think that there can be perspective. Then use even harder logic thats too much for him to understand to make him confused. After he is confused and seeing that there is another perspective to it he calms down and thinks.

    Dunno if this works with all NF's or even all infps
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Not a thing you can do. Just pretend to agree with their values. If the F in question has a well developed T, you can reason with them. Just ignore their emotional reaction for the time being, if they really have a good T they will appreciate your point eventually. After their passions tame down and they get around to think. But with most Fs, if you cannot avoid dealing with them, just lay low and be polite, you're walking a minefield.

    If you're getting mashed, remember, Henry Kissinger said 'if you want to win someone back, never disagree with them'. Not necessarily that you should try to 'win them back' or be on good terms with them, thats too much of a headache no doubt, just to get them off your back agree with everything they say. Smile. Say it gently. Remember, to Fs it doesn't really matter what you say, only how you say it, so don't be afraid to make blatantly false claims or contradict what you said 5 seconds ago. They will hardly notice, and if they do and have an emotional reaction about it, even that will be overshadowed by the 'gentle and agreeable' way you said it. Remember, to an F, truth doesn't really matter, it is all about what 'feels' like harmony. Doesn't have to be genuine harmony or long-lasting, or with any good potential, just in the moment it must feel 'good' and like harmony to the F. In short, it doesn't even need to make any sense, it just has to feel 'good' to an F, and I believe the above shows how to induce such a feeling within an F.

    *Mental note: notice how if you were to come to an F with your problem, they would make no effort to make sense of it or help you solve it. They would just keep on saying, its okay! You're great! You did the right thing! Everything will be alright!

    (Even though all of those comments are complete non-sense often)

    This is what they want to hear. To a T it sounds ridiculous to have these things said as they are filtered through our critical thinking faculties, they don't filter anything. They just take it for face value. Tell them 'you're great' they buy it wholesale. Their emotions are directly influenced by what is said, not by their thoughts on what is said.

    My question is:

    There have been numerous very negative reactions to this. I don't understand - this seems like a very good advice that will get the job done - a good working "tool".

    To all who hate it: Why?

    I don't understand.

  8. #128
    Senior Member toast's Avatar
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    There have been numerous very negative reactions to this. I don't understand - this seems like a very good advice that will get the job done - a good working "tool".

    To all who hate it: Why?

    I don't understand.
    It sounds offensive & is counter intuitive to post it as a solution & expect Fs to agree (or anyone who doesn't want to piss the Fs off). IF Fs really did care that much about what is said, & stick to their values so fervently, obviously no one is going to get anywhere by saying 'Lie to them because they like it & it works'. Basically, even if the above works to calm an F, it still implies the emotions expressed by the F need to go away & that Fs can't see through false sympathy. It makes me think of a puppy being coaxed into a cage.

    Also, this part: "Mental note: notice how if you were to come to an F with your problem, they would make no effort to make sense of it or help you solve it. They would just keep on saying, its okay! You're great! You did the right thing! Everything will be alright!"

    This is quite a generalization & probably incited some of the negative reactions. It is F related to empathize & T related to problem solve but the idea that Fs in general just brush off any problem with empathy is asinine. I usually ask more questions when someone tells me about a problem, to get them thinking about options to solve it, & the empathy I feel/show is used by me to encourage them to solve the problem themselves or get through it if it is unsolvable. It is true that I will usually not directly lay out a solution. If I give advice, it is generally by accident, because I have rarely successfully told a person how to solve a problem & had them go out & do it. It is my experience that people do better when they are self-inspired. Of course, this isn't the same thing as offering help when I have something to offer - which I do very readily & I attribute a lot of that to F.

    ---

    As for what I have experienced in calming Fs (& what works on me) I use the idea that Fs in pain (strong emotions in general) go through a cycle (or wave) regardless of externals. So once an emotional breakdown starts, it can be moved along & made less intense, but it will usually still hit a peak before it subsides. It doesn't just get disarmed & disappear. If you move with the emotional 'wave' & sort of join the person (even if you aren't presently 'there' but give them some idea that you are aware of their experience) it can lessen the stress & make the whole thing less intense. I know some Fs that like to be alone when they get very upset, & usually they just want to hear that you are intentionally leaving them alone because it is what they want & not because of anything they've done. This is just a matter of reassuring them that you want them to feel better & will give them an ear IF they need it.

    A lot of Fs do want some verbal reassurance & this can be as simple as letting them vent with a little validation here & there. This does NOT mean pretending to agree with them or faking their emotions. It is about showing them somehow that your ultimate goal is for them to feel better, while expressing whatever understanding you can about why they are upset.

    The 'I understand why you're so pissed / sad / stressed', 'is there anything I can do or NOT do?' just takes off the added stress of isolation, shame (& it's resulting defensive anger) that seem to tag along with an emotional meltdown. So the F can do what they need to do to complete the cycle. I like the "well" analogy in the book "Men are from Mars/Women are from Venus" because it seems similar.

    I can say from my perspective (& I think it is very ENFJ), I can sense fake empathy from a mile away. It isn't easy to fake empathy & it is almost impossible to fool a master. I don't need empathy over understanding. If you 'get' why I'm mad / sad / overwhelmed, the best you can do is say that. If you add empathy, all the better. I don't want you to pretend to agree with me either. Just be smart enough not to argue your point until I am calm because no one who is emotionally charged will really listen to something that opposes their feelings.

    In short:
    - don't lie to an F to 'calm' them.
    - don't expect to calm them if they sense you are overwhelmed by their emotions.
    - If you say something like: 'I get why you're so pissed / sad / stressed', 'is there anything I can do or NOT do?' & they answer with a lot of bitching, chances are they are either: too angry at YOU to be calmed by you. - or - Fe's who need to vent in order to calm. So it may be best to just leave or listen.

    Also, sometimes from posts like the above, I get the impression that a lot of Ts don't realize most of the overwhelming self judgment that comes with a meltdown is still there in Fs. What I mean is, if a cool, collected T has a big freak out, he probably feels shame / embarrassment / self criticism / vulnerability - somewhere around the meltdown. This is still present in a lot of Fs who seem to 'freak out' all the time.

    ____________________________________________
    "In my soul rages a battle without victor. Between faith without proof and reason without charm." - Sully Prudhomme

  9. #129
    Senior Member Lily flower's Avatar
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    Well, you could try not arguing or insulting them in the first place. They are emotional as a consequence of what you said to them.

    If they are already emotional, apologize, and if they are emotional for another reason besides you, ask them about their feelings and encourage them to talk about everything.

  10. #130
    Senior Member BAJ's Avatar
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    I read a few openning posts before realized the necromancy, then I skipped to the end.

    I have no idea what it means by "calm them down." What was the sitaution? What are you trying to manipulate them into doing? What's behavior that has preturbed you?

    I have a lot of eccentricities, and I can't say I've never lost my mind, but usually throwing down lots of Te pretty calmly.

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