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  1. #21
    Senior Member blahblahbob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baccheion View Post
    Judgers, especially guardians, seem to spend more time trying to figure out what they want and are usually clearer on it (right or wrong) than perceivers. xxTJs seem to be the clearest. Usually if you ask a judger what they want (out of life, in a relationship, etc), they'll have a list. That said, I usually don't listen to much to what a feeler says regarding what they want. They are usually bending the truth to avoid criticism, saying something other than what they want to come across in (what they think is) a positive way, or think they know what they want, but are actually not being honest with themselves.
    TJ's are all Fi - they're just as likely as other Fi's to "transmute" their emotions into a different manifestation.

    An --FJ will frequently annoy a --TJ for this reason.

  2. #22
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    I've always entertained the thought that IEIs were these lost, harp-playing nymphs that wandered the Earth alone on their vaguely-defined quest for the Golden Pillar.
    ESIs are supposed to be the "Guardian" types and they're Ij temperament. Maybe that could suggest an Ip would be more "floating around." Take Pi-dominance plus Fe-Ti axis you described in disconnect from true desires, combine that with the insatiable Ni-Se axis and you got it.

  3. #23
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    A huge difficulty in my life has been that I know exactly what I want, but exactly what I want isn't an option. Which means I have to choose between varying areas and degrees of dissatisfaction. And for me, there are no varying degrees of dissatisfaction--they're all The Worst. Sucks for me. And I guess it's not very nice for those around me. I'm okay at compromise when it's based on an ideal I value, such as compromising for the sake of a relationship. But a big part of me feels it's weak and dishonorable to compromise for the sake of convenience. Perfection should be pursued.

    For example, I'm a horrible shopping companion because I have to look at every single possibility in every possible store, and about a dozen items will have three good features and seven bad ones, so I must decide between which three good features I value the most and which seven bad features I can live with. And all that is NOT what I had in mind when I made the decision to shop for item X. Now I must reevaluate everything in relation to all ten possible features of item X, and then return to shop again on a later day. So I go home unhappy and empty handed because I failed to find exactly what I wanted, and I couldn't persuade myself to settle for anything less. When my shopping buddy thinks, "She just didn't know what she wanted," she's right to a certain extent: I didn't know which flawed thing I wanted because I didn't want ANY flawed thing!

    I didn't settle on a career until I was 35--not because I didn't know what I wanted, but because I didn't know how to find what I wanted. I often think I'd be much happier if I didn't have such a clear vision of what I want. I always know what I want. But I never know how to give up on the ideal in my head when what I want seems unattainable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    In my opinion, it's not that INFJs don't know what they want but they don't know how to want something because the "how" is subservient to the why they should want it in the first place. The "why", of course, is defined by the ideal that they have set for themselves.
    There might be some truth in this. I'm not very good at making flighty, whimsical decisions. I often wonder why people imagine they can convince me that I want something different, since the decision to want that thing is so weighty in the first place. How can they imagine that their paltry reasons can compare with all that lies behind the wanting of this thing?

    This is not an uncommon trait in my family. We just call it stubbornness. We have a family story about an old ancestor who was sawing firewood to a particular length. The end of one piece was going to come just to the center of a knot, which would be very difficult to saw through. His friend suggested he cut the piece either longer or shorter, to avoid the knot. The old man growled, "I never go around a knot!" That's me, making things difficult because I can't bring myself to accept a "lesser" alternative.
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  4. #24
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I usually know the inner concept of what I want, but get rather confused as to how to map that to reality.
    Exactly. But do you have clear preferences on everyday things? Are you always certain that something you would like would be better than something else you would like, or that something unexpected that might happen wouldn't be better? Do you have conflicting desires?

    (directed at everyone here as well)

    Quote Originally Posted by Susurrus View Post
    I think for INFJs it's more common for them to ask themselves "what is needed" more than "what do I personally want/need?" because perhaps on a philosophical level they want to contribute to a good greater than themselves for which to strive. This becomes a basis for their careers or personal life in that everything they're doing integrates with this ideal in some way. If you notice their functions, they are so "anti-self"(NiFeTiSe). Perhaps the closest function that can assist the INFJ in assigning a value to something is Ti, and even that function just takes apart the rationale of wanting something because it's not a very strong function to begin with.

    In my opinion, it's not that INFJs don't know what they want but they don't know how to want something because the "how" is subservient to the why they should want it in the first place. The "why", of course, is defined by the ideal that they have set for themselves.
    This is kind of what I'm getting at too, at least in relation to me; I know abstract, big, idealistic things I want like out of life, but that doesn't always translate to something concrete.

    Example: I think I want to get really good at Spanish. But studying is boring and I haven't done it for a really long time. So I guess one could say I don't really want it that much and just think I do. Maybe I'd rather do yoga. Maybe I like the idea of some things more than the things themselves.

    Example: I think I want to live in New York. But maybe if it came down to it I would find out I didn't. And I haven't wanted to enough to actually try it yet, because apparently there were other things I felt more comfortable with. So do I want excitement or comfort more? I don't know. I don't know if I want to live there or not because I don't think I know enough to make an informed decision. I don't know where I want to live. I know all the characteristics of my ideal place, but I don't know if it exists.

    Like one of you has said, I want it to be perfect or nothing.

  5. #25
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    I identified with a lot of what @faith said. The other problem for me is that I will pick familiarity over novelty most of the time, as long as what is familiar isn't bad. I like knowing what I'm getting.

  6. #26

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    I used to be indecisive but now I'm not really sure.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    My family has always described me as a tenacious, quiet, steady go-getter. I have always had a pretty clear picture of who I am, what matters to me and what I want. What I want stems from who I am, my core values, and while I may go with the flow on the surface, at the core I'm consistently working toward living the kind of life I envision. I constantly prioritize and work to maintain my focus on "the big picture."

    I'd be lying if I said I didn't always have at least a skeleton outline of what I was up to. There is always a plan and usually a backup one, too.

    The only time I don't know what I want is when I have to make an emotional decision. Then there is a struggle between my head and my heart (for example when my dog had cancer and I was forced to make a decision regarding his life.)



    In matters of style or preference or things that carry no long term weight, I am like "just whatever,"
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #28
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by faith View Post
    A huge difficulty in my life has been that I know exactly what I want, but exactly what I want isn't an option. Which means I have to choose between varying areas and degrees of dissatisfaction. And for me, there are no varying degrees of dissatisfaction--they're all The Worst. Sucks for me. And I guess it's not very nice for those around me. I'm okay at compromise when it's based on an ideal I value, such as compromising for the sake of a relationship. But a big part of me feels it's weak and dishonorable to compromise for the sake of convenience. Perfection should be pursued.

    For example, I'm a horrible shopping companion because I have to look at every single possibility in every possible store, and about a dozen items will have three good features and seven bad ones, so I must decide between which three good features I value the most and which seven bad features I can live with. And all that is NOT what I had in mind when I made the decision to shop for item X. Now I must reevaluate everything in relation to all ten possible features of item X, and then return to shop again on a later day. So I go home unhappy and empty handed because I failed to find exactly what I wanted, and I couldn't persuade myself to settle for anything less. When my shopping buddy thinks, "She just didn't know what she wanted," she's right to a certain extent: I didn't know which flawed thing I wanted because I didn't want ANY flawed thing!

    I didn't settle on a career until I was 35--not because I didn't know what I wanted, but because I didn't know how to find what I wanted. I often think I'd be much happier if I didn't have such a clear vision of what I want. I always know what I want. But I never know how to give up on the ideal in my head when what I want seems unattainable.
    I can relate a lot to this.

    There's something underlying in me that almost always already knows what I want, but the conflict I run into interacting with the external world is that I also always already know it isn't possible- there's what I want ideally and then there's what I estimate is reasonable/practical to expect (the 'wants' I'm willing to present to the world). It's always a matter of figuring out how much I should settle. And that's where I get lost and unsure.

    I really hate feeling selfish and imposing expectations that seem unreasonable to others- yet at the same time, I invariably end up feeling absolutely miserable (bored out of my mind/overwhelmingly under-stimulated, or disheartened/depressed) if I compromise/settle too much. I try to surround myself with people who have similar ideals/goals for this reason- in attempt to marry the 'ideal' with reality, I need to interact with others who share a similar 'ideal'- as much as possible. The urge to not unreasonably impose my own 'wants' where they aren't shared is so strong that if/when I'm immersed in a group who doesn't seem to share my 'ideals' at all- when I feel pressured to settle for something far removed from what I actually want (this is something that happens in work environments more than friendships/relationships I think.....though I am exceptionally choosy about friends because of it)- then I'll feel myself starting to lose touch with what I want. That's really a horrible feeling. And by "immersed in a group"- that pretty much means any kind of interaction with another person, even if I'm referring to interaction with one single person outside myself. [And I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to only interact with like-minded people- I'm just saying that, I've found, I thrive at chiseling reality into something I love when I have someone on the outside of myself trying to get at the same thing, where I don't feel pressure to settle for something unsatisfying. eta: If I have that kind of support/foundation outside myself- e.g. having a co-worker who understands exactly why a supervisor is frustrating to me- then the pressure to settle for something I don't want/far removed from my own 'ideals' is infinitely more bearable, probably because that helps me stay in touch with 'what I want'.]

    more eta:

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The other problem for me is that I will pick familiarity over novelty most of the time, as long as what is familiar isn't bad. I like knowing what I'm getting.
    This is a problem for me as well. I'll choose flaws I can anticipate over possible flaws that might completely take me by surprise. It's probably to compensate for my inability to interact very mercurially with my external environment- but that reticence has sometimes kept me in unfavorable situations.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari
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  9. #29
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate: I relate very much to needing to surround oneself with likeminded people, and also to knowing what I can anticipate.

    (all of this: /Fe, btw I think, and then inf. Se)

  10. #30
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Exactly. But do you have clear preferences on everyday things? Are you always certain that something you would like would be better than something else you would like, or that something unexpected that might happen wouldn't be better? Do you have conflicting desires?
    I have trouble identifying my preferences, and it is in part because I've always tended to give whomever I'm with the choice. It is also because it's easy for me to adapt to most things. When it is something a bit more personal like choice of food, I sometimes find something I like and stick to it.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

    I want to be just like my mother, even if she is bat-shit crazy.

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