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Thread: NF Arrogance

  1. #81
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    The claim was "Secondly, it's kinda bullshit, because NTs rarely admit they are bad at feelings."

    If I thought the OP's admission wouldn't be sufficient, I'd have admitted it as well in an earlier post. I am bad at feelings, at least compared to an NF or SF. I can't see any reason for other NTs to hesitate to admit the same.

    Not seeing when emotions apply may be a flaw of NTs, but it is not the same as the claimed flaw: that we don't admit to being bad at it.
    No, my reply was to the immediate post that was quoted above what I wrote. Ti style argument forces me to comb through immediate details as they come (which I would honestly rather not do), so that's what I was doing. Don't make out that I'm just shifting the argument to suit myself.

    The OP made the claim that NTs readily admit to being bad at feelings. My point is that our definitions differ wildly on what constitutes the emotional-driven aspects of life, and that when NTs do admit to it, they are often only admitting to being bad at emotion as defined within their very narrow parameters, that they may have a sense of disdain for anyway. The rest of the Feeling realm that isn't just raw emotion, they often still claim to be good at. To me that renders the admission inaccurate, if not dishonest, and perhaps even a veiled boast in the guise of humility.

    Ignoring emotional elements can cause them to no longer be a factor. Even if we can't ignore emotional elements, separating them out and considering them separately from everything else is often reasonable, and can simplify analyzing the rest. Even when emotional elements are inextricably intertwined in something, at least some parts of it can be separated out and considered apart from emotional considerations.
    I agree, but there can be something of the Dunning-Kruger effect involved, where the Thinker believes they understand more than they do. I'm sure the same thing happens with NFs with regard to impersonal logic, but this is less of an issue as it can be judged by more objective standards (even if they were to refuse to accept that fact). But it can be harder to prove to Thinker that they are overestimating their ability/understanding when it comes to subjective elements, even if it is true. As a Feeler, this can be very frustrating.

    Pursuing objectivity is neither blind nor arrogant. It's a very good idea. Even if we can't reach the goal of perfect objectivity, getting a reasonably close approximation is well worth the effort.

    Done right, it's not a blind spot, it's something that *helps us find our blind spots*.
    I agree to some extent, but there are downsides, as with the blind men and the elephant analogy. In the pursuit of objectivity, subjective data or bias is often ignored or swept under the carpet without recognizing how it can undermine that whole process.

    Again, I do not mean to claim Feeling is superior to Thinking; there is need and room for both. I only meant to point out that there can be misguided flaws in 'objective' analysis. This is not to say it is worthless; only that it is imperfect, like subjective analysis. If you can't recognize that then you are simply making my point for me.

    Is there a difference? If so, what is it?
    I'm not sure what you mean by this.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Ti style argument forces me to comb through immediate details as they come (which I would honestly rather not do), so that's what I was doing.
    What is your ordinary/preferred style?

    The OP made the claim that NTs readily admit to being bad at feelings.
    He supported this by admitting it. So did I. There wasn't any hesitation, nor did we try to hide/downplay/qualify it. I see no reason to doubt that other NTs would generally do the same thing.

    My point is that our definitions differ wildly on what constitutes the emotional-driven aspects of life, and that when NTs do admit to it, they are often only admitting to being bad at emotion as defined within their very narrow parameters,
    Sure.

    that they may have a sense of disdain for anyway. The rest of the Feeling realm that isn't just raw emotion, they often still claim to be good at. To me that renders the admission inaccurate, if not dishonest, and perhaps even a veiled boast in the guise of humility.
    I think the 'veiled boast' thing you keep bringing up is not a very good point. Sure, there are probably a few people who do that, but I doubt there are many. For one thing, being bad at feelings doesn't make you good at logic. For another, Thinkers don't always devalue Feeling as much as you think. Maybe we don't value it in the way you do, or as much, but that doesn't mean we think it's worthless.

    There is nothing dishonest in the admission either. I think you are reading into us an emotion that (at least for most of us) just isn't there. I don't feel any sort of shame at being bad at feeling, anymore than I feel shame at being bad at drawing. My drawing is one step above stick-figures, certainly not the worst in the world, but any real artist could draw circles around me without trying. But just because the artist could understand my mistakes better than me doesn't mean he can reasonably claim that I'm dishonest when I say I'm bad at drawing.

    I'm not exactly sure exactly what you're referring to when you say "The rest of the Feeling realm that isn't just raw emotion". I don't believe that NTs regularly claim to be good at that. I suspect you may be using the word 'claim' in a funny way.

    there can be something of the Dunning-Kruger effect involved, where the Thinker believes they understand more than they do. I'm sure the same thing happens with NFs with regard to impersonal logic,
    Agreed.

    In the pursuit of objectivity, subjective data or bias is often ignored or swept under the carpet without recognizing how it can undermine that whole process.
    There are two ways to interpret 'ignored' here.

    If you mean that the misleading effect of subjective biases is ignored, then that's not objectivity, it's an attempt at objectivity that failed.

    If you mean that subjective ideas or biases or emotions are ignored on purpose where they aren't relevant, that's a good attempt at objectivity (though it may still fail to be perfect).

    I'm not sure what you mean by this.
    You appeared to be claiming that there's a difference between "Truth" and what is found by "hard, impersonal logic". I was asking what the difference was. It may have something to do with the fact that you spelled Truth with a capital T.

  3. #83
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    While it might be true that NTs may admit that they are bad at feelings, for the most part I've noticed that they disregard the importance of them. This could be seen as arrogance from a certain vantage, like for instance, an NF vantage.

  4. #84
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    What is your ordinary/preferred style?
    As a Fi-dom I'm simply not as detail-oriented as Ti-doms. Being a Te user also means I have difficulty with argument based on the idea that nothing can be assumed and everything must be proven in painstaking detail.

    This is not the fault of Ti-users by any means, but it is so very exhausting for me.

    You do insist on missing the point, don't you?

    You appeared to be claiming that there's a difference between "Truth" and what is found by "hard, impersonal logic". I was asking what the difference was. It may have something to do with the fact that you spelled Truth with a capital T.
    I mean that some 'Truth' can be found in impersonal logic and some 'Truth' can be found in subjective logic; neither Thinkers nor Feelers can be said to better at recognizing Truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    While it might be true that NTs may admit that they are bad at feelings, for the most part I've noticed that they disregard the importance of them. This could be seen as arrogance from a certain vantage, like for instance, an NF vantage.
    Agreed. I have been trying to say the very same thing.
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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    While it might be true that NTs may admit that they are bad at feelings, for the most part I've noticed that they disregard the importance of them. This could be seen as arrogance from a certain vantage, like for instance, an NF vantage.
    I can't really see how that could be interpreted as arrogance.

    Let's try flipping this around. If an NT were to say that NFs disregard the importance of logic, and that this was arrogant, would you agree?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I mean that some 'Truth' can be found in impersonal logic and some 'Truth' can be found in subjective logic; neither Thinkers nor Feelers can be said to better at recognizing Truth.
    This doesn't say what you mean by "Truth".

    You do insist on missing the point, don't you?

    I have been trying to say the very same thing.
    If what you're saying is that what Qlip said is what you've been saying all along, why didn't you just say it? Why are you still insisting that NTs don't admit being bad at feeling if that's not what your point is?

  6. #86
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    You know if I'm arrogant fine, whatever, I'm probably better than you anyways.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #87
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I can't really see how that could be interpreted as arrogance.

    Let's try flipping this around. If an NT were to say that NFs disregard the importance of logic, and that this was arrogant, would you agree?
    Yes, I would, or at least I might.

    The arrogance in either situation, which are both common, is the disregarder considering anything beyond their personal abilities of little value. Arrogance is a defense mechanism used to bolster self importance.

  8. #88
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I can't really see how that could be interpreted as arrogance.

    Let's try flipping this around. If an NT were to say that NFs disregard the importance of logic, and that this was arrogant, would you agree?
    You can't see how dismissing the importance of the way in which another individual formulates conclusions, etc. (what information is made use of/guides the individual) might be perceived as arrogant? What would you interpret it as? Fact?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starry View Post
    You can't see how dismissing the importance of the way in which another individual formulates conclusions, etc. (what information is made use of/guides the individual) might be perceived as arrogant?
    Not really. What is important is what the conclusion is, whether it's correct, and how we can know that it is actually correct. How they got there is usually irrelevant.

    It can be relevant, if the topic is itself about how people think, or if someone is trying to teach someone something that they aren't getting and they need to be able to explain it so that it is understood, or if two people are trying to communicate and there's a bad enough misunderstanding that knowing how the other person thinks is necessary to understand what they're saying at all, or something like that.

    What would you interpret it as? Fact?
    Basically. It's a fact that they reached that conclusion, so it must be a fact that there was a way for them to reach it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    Not really. What is important is what the conclusion is, whether it's correct, and how we can know that it is actually correct. How they got there is usually irrelevant.

    It can be relevant, if the topic is itself about how people think, or if someone is trying to teach someone something that they aren't getting and they need to be able to explain it so that it is understood, or if two people are trying to communicate and there's a bad enough misunderstanding that knowing how the other person thinks is necessary to understand what they're saying at all, or something like that.


    Basically. It's a fact that they reached that conclusion, so it must be a fact that there was a way for them to reach it.
    Hah, I don't want to speak for Starry. But it's assuming that most situations have a 'correct' conclusion, and that there are even 'correct' ways for other parties to assess the 'correctness'. This is Fi talking, we tend to find such impositions arrogant. For us truth is subjective.

    I find things like 'correctness' are hard to evaluate when the goals are not shared. Goals are functions of values, which really aren't factually verifiable. From an MBTI perspective, this could be prioritized by any of the rational functions.

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