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Thread: NF Arrogance

  1. #11
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    The ENFP is really just saying that NFs believe they are just as rational as NTs. That's what he means by NF arrogance. Does anyone think this is true? Do NFs think they are as rational as NTs? NTs certainly don't think they're as good with emotions as NFs.

  2. #12
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    I suspect the OP doesn't really know what "feeling" is in Jungian terms. All this pitting of emotions against rational reasoning, as if feeling is not the latter..... Don't we have a sticky on this somewhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Most INFP's are women, and since most INTP's are wildly insecure about women and their own intellects, this is just a hit-piece on the that specific group, couched in the 'fair and balanced' manner of the cardigan wearing NT 'father class'. NT's always try to sell themselves as sensible, even when they are being irrational and petty. Ever notice that? I have noticed it, even though I 'can't think'. Can some rationalist tell me what to do? I can only feel...
    I don't think it's misogyny, but it's definitely rooted in inferior Fe and insecurity.

    I know this because I am good at feelings, so if the OP refutes it, then he's showing arrogance in an area he has no rightful claim to.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #13
    Member doppelganger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I suspect the OP doesn't really know what "feeling" is in Jungian terms. All this pitting of emotions against rational reasoning, as if feeling is not the latter..... Don't we have a sticky on this somewhere?
    Again, the idea originated with an ENFP, not with me.

    I don't think it's misogyny, but it's definitely rooted in inferior Fe and insecurity.

    I know this because I am good at feelings, so if the OP refutes it, then he's showing arrogance in an area he has no rightful claim to.
    This doesn't make sense. The ENFP isn't saying NFs don't reason like NTs do, only that they don't do it as well. Likewise, NTs have feelings like NFs do, but don't understand them as well. So there's no reason I can't discuss feelings with you anymore than you can't reason with me. Your presumption that if I should even try to talk about feelings with you it would discredit me is therefore absurd.

    And you're still attacking me and not addressing the point. Do NFs think they are as rational as NTs? It's a simple question. The fact people are dancing around it is itself an answer.

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    Again, the idea originated with an ENFP, not with me.
    Soooo? You present it like you believe it. And the idea is formed on a false premise of what Feeling and Thinking even are. That premise is being pointed out.


    This doesn't make sense. The ENFP isn't saying NFs don't reason like NTs do, only that they don't do it as well. Likewise, NTs have feelings like NFs do, but don't understand them as well. So there's no reason I can't discuss feelings with you anymore than you can't reason with me. Your presumption that if I should even try to talk about feelings with you, that it would discredit me is therefore absurd.
    But apparently, I shouldn't ever use sarcasm with you.

    And you're still attacking me and not addressing the point. Do NFs think they are as rational as NTs? It's a simple question. The fact people are dancing around it is itself an answer.
    The idea is being mocked, and you're thoroughly missing the point in the mocking, which reveals the flaw in the premise. The interpretation of what is rational is heavily biased by your own preferences. FYI, ENFPs like to agree with people and stroke their egos to get their foot in with them (the emotional manipulation INTPs so fear). That has a lot more to do with Extroverted Intuition than Feeling. An ENFP telling you what your ego wants to hear? No - impossible! This makes your ego extremely relevant to this discussion, as does the parallel of the fragile male ego needing to believe women are irrational.

    The first part of my post was conveniently ignored (or you know, "danced around"). You show a poor understanding of what Feeling even is. Try reading Jung and a few other books, or you know, hit up those stickied threads, and then come back to the discussion. I'm tired of schooling people on this topic.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I suspect the OP doesn't really know what "feeling" is in Jungian terms. All this pitting of emotions against rational reasoning, as if feeling is not the latter..... Don't we have a sticky on this somewhere?



    I don't think it's misogyny, but it's definitely rooted in inferior Fe and insecurity.

    I know this because I am good at feelings, so if the OP refutes it, then he's showing arrogance in an area he has no rightful claim to.
    Despite being a woman, despite being unable to 'think' based on the 'science' of typology(lol), this OA person seems to be able to articulate herself very well, and since any judgement of the degree of another's articulation (positive or negative) is also an implicit judgement on that person's or class's ability to to 'think', then I judge her an excellent thinker.
    But what do I know...

  6. #16
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    I don't get it--what exactly do you have against cardigans?
    Only the patch on the elbow kind. Practicality ruins it.

  7. #17
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    I'm not actually arrogant, but I apparently come across that way. Quite often.

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  8. #18
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmj85 View Post
    I'm not actually arrogant, but I apparently come across that way. Quite often.

    same. though i think a lot of it is people not accepting facts.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  9. #19
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    Because I'm such a bleeding heart, I have given a more detailed answer, albeit, no less cheeky at points.

    1. Type is not skill set. Type does not determine ability, and it certainly doesn’t determine intelligence. When you go down that road, then you are basically being prejudiced. Type is ego, and it possibly best determines YOUR own biases concerning how you perceive and judge.

    Since it has not been defined, I can only presume by “NT thinking” or “rationality” you mean things of an intellectual nature. This likely has more to do with intelligence, followed by an interest in such matters. Given that NFs are commonly interested in such matters, then it’s a matter of intelligence.

    NTs on average are not smarter than NFs, so there is no argument left. Even if you consider IQ a valid measurement, INxx types are most commonly the highest averages, not NTs. This means INFx types are up there with INTx types. INFx are also found to over-represented in higher education and the sciences, which shows an interest in intellectual realms.

    2. Feeling and Thinking are both rational in Jungian terms. Thinking is impersonal classification and Feeling is evaluative reasoning, assigning of worth, using the human experience as the gauge. Feeling uses emotion more because it is relevant data, but feeling is NOT emotion. In reality, emotion and cognition have no clear line, but in Jung’s theory, the dominant function is the most differentiated from non-cognitive stuff (ie. emotions, memory, fantasy). This makes dominant feeling types possessing of the most rational feeling. What does that mean for dominant thinking types? Since they have inferior feeling, it is not differentiated from emotion, and so they project their emotional experience of the feeling process onto others.

    In short, because an INTP’s use of feeling is irrational and emotional, they assume it is the same for others. This related to misogyny because of the projection aspect - to fear the “other” as something crazy and out of control. That is how we experience our anima or animus, aka, our inferior function.

    So for an NT to say “NFs are not as good at rational thinking” is denying the rationality of feeling, which says more about the NT making such a statement than the NFs. An NF saying “I am good at rational thinking” is generally asserting the rationality of their Feeling, not laying claim to being good at the kind of impersonal classification NTs favor. Since this is all ego, it has more to do with personality and how one experiences reality than skills and abilities anyway.

    Personally, I claim neither, but I do claim a superior sense of aesthetics to NTs. Without seeing you or knowing anything about you other than your type, I am quite sure my wardrobe is much more stylish than yours. And don’t you dare tell me SPs own that realm.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    I only mention his cred cuz someone claimed the idea originated with a NT--it didn't. The idea itself, however, should be evaluated on its own merits and not on the basis of that ENFP or this INTP. To do so would be nothing less than an ad hominem attack, an argument in bad faith.

    So if you want to address the points, please do. Otherwise, pls refrain from further comments of this sort cuz they miss the point and derail the thread.

    thank you
    Um, I'm NT. I'm sorry. I just have a knee-jerk reaction to 'credentials' supposedly being the end-all be-all and assume anyone with them could very well have barely passed all of their classes. Also, people say they have lots of things; doesn't mean they do. I'm a doubter. Can't help that. It wasn't a personal attack on the supposed (<--see?) ENFP, it was just a reaction to the creds. That's it.

    I'll concede that it's off-topic though and leave it at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by doppelganger View Post
    The ENFP is really just saying that NFs believe they are just as rational as NTs. That's what he means by NF arrogance. Does anyone think this is true? Do NFs think they are as rational as NTs? NTs certainly don't think they're as good with emotions as NFs.
    Okay, in the opening post, you said that, according to that guy, NFs like to believe they are just "as good" at thinking like a NT. That they also like to think they're good at thinking like NFs, and that NTs, unlike them, do not do this and therefore aren't as arrogant.

    You also asked if NFs agree. But, here, in this quote, you conflate NTs being called Rationals with thinking rationally, and that's where it gets confusing as to what you really are asking. Feeling is a rational function, so of course they'd be offended if you conflate the two and imply they're arrogant if they think they're rational. They're not arrogant to think so; they're right to think so.

    Maybe word it differently and ask if they think they're "good at" being both NFs and NTs, but just get a kick out of calling themselves Fs until they collapse under the facade. Which isn't me ad homineming you, but me paraphrasing the end of the OP.
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