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Thread: NF Arrogance

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    But it's assuming that most situations have a 'correct' conclusion, and that there are even 'correct' ways for other parties to assess the 'correctness'. This is Fi talking, we tend to find such impositions arrogant. For us truth is subjective.

    I find things like 'correctness' are hard to evaluate when the goals are not shared.
    I think you guys are definitely using different definitions of 'truth' and 'correctness'. 'Truth' and 'correctness', as I mean them, aren't things subject to mere personal opinion or things that are affected by sharing or not sharing goals.

    For example, in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts the Emporer, they both have wildly different opinions about all sorts of things -- whether the Empire or Rebels should win the battle, whether the Emporer's intent to slaughter all of Luke's friends was pleasant or unpleasant, whether the Death Star's main weapon being operational was a good or bad thing, etc. But they did agree that some things were true. They both knew that the Death Star's main weapon was operational, that the Emporer's intent to slaughter all of Luke's friends, and that there was a battle going on.

    When the Emporer patted Luke's lightsaber and said "You want this, don't you?", he was correct. Their goals were nearly opposites, but the correctness of that statement was not hard to evaluate at all.

  2. #92
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I think you guys are definitely using different definitions of 'truth' and 'correctness'. 'Truth' and 'correctness', as I mean them, aren't things subject to mere personal opinion or things that are affected by sharing or not sharing goals.

    For example, in Return of the Jedi, when Luke confronts the Emporer, they both have wildly different opinions about all sorts of things -- whether the Empire or Rebels should win the battle, whether the Emporer's intent to slaughter all of Luke's friends was pleasant or unpleasant, whether the Death Star's main weapon being operational was a good or bad thing, etc. But they did agree that some things were true. They both knew that the Death Star's main weapon was operational, that the Emporer's intent to slaughter all of Luke's friends, and that there was a battle going on.

    When the Emporer patted Luke's lightsaber and said "You want this, don't you?", he was correct. Their goals were nearly opposites, but the correctness of that statement was not hard to evaluate at all.
    Yes, but you're elevating objective truth only by the virtue that it's verifiable. This is the purview of the Thinker. It's the subjective truths are the things that caused the conflict, that were central the the reason the story exists, the truth of the Empire and the truth of the Rebels. The movie itself, of course, doesn't give you the space to ponder the complexities. It makes it easy to tell, cuz Nazis.

    Anyway, I find it ironic that you're using Star Wars in this little conversation. We were discussing about the propensity for NTs to dismiss the importance of emotion, whether they acknowledge it or not, and all-the-bad-shit in the movie happens because the Dark Side takes advantage of those unaware of their feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Yes, but you're elevating objective truth only by the virtue that it's verifiable.
    I'm not elevating anything, that's just the ordinary meaning of the word.

    It's the subjective truths are the things that caused the conflict, that were central the the reason the story exists, the truth of the Empire and the truth of the Rebels.
    So when you say 'truth', you mean feelings/opinions/values?

    all-the-bad-shit in the movie happens because the Dark Side takes advantage of those unaware of their feeeeeeeeeeeeeelings.
    I don't think we should take a movie morality based on a fictional mystical energy field too seriously, but if we did, it would be more like 'the Dark Side is feelings'.

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    This may have already been discussed, but I'm going to arrogantly skip to the end.

    Has anyone ever experienced inadvertent alienation? Sometimes I get the distinct impression that people simply don't like me for some completely indiscernible reason. This thread (and the observations of those close to me) has made me wonder if it is indeed to do with appearing arrogant. For example, I'm currently training to be a counsellor. The other week I got to practise my skills on a '''client''', and was praised for my performance. I was totally humbled by the experience because, long story short, I was dealing with a genuinely horrible thing. Truth be told I was fighting back the tears - as were my fellow students who were observing. I took the praise graciously and thanked people for their input.

    The week afterwards, people's attitudes had noticeably changed towards me... for the worse! Not everybody, but a few of my classmates are shunning me so hard that their disapproval is palpable. Now, I'm not usually one for giving much of a shit about what people think of me; I'm a good person who seeks to do no harm, so if someone takes a dislike to me, well... balls to them, but this? This is just weird. Did I come across as arrogant, or something?

    I also made the mistake of offering a small bit of constructive criticism (it was being pushed for) after another classmate had finished her practise session. I was met with silent but vehement disapproval. Recipient of said criticism (which was measured and fair - I'm a fucking INFJ, come on!) no longer speaks to me.

    Ugh. People.




    /rant.

  5. #95
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    I think he's right.

    To a certain extent. It's hard to beat NT analysis, as much as I hate to admit it.

    What I know about NTJs is that N of the F type is fuzzier and harder to nail down. It's more irrational, because T is more rational than F. Therefore, it's kind of like comparing apples to oranges.

    Basically, it just means arrogance comes more easily to NT, than NF. NFs naturally feel arrogant sometimes, but we know as a negative emotion, it isn't ideal, so we have inner conflict. It's as simple as that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Most INFP's are women, and since most INTP's are wildly insecure about women and their own intellects, this is just a hit-piece on the that specific group, couched in the 'fair and balanced' manner of the cardigan wearing NT 'father class'. NT's always try to sell themselves as sensible, even when they are being irrational and petty. Ever notice that? I have noticed it, even though I 'can't think'. Can some rationalist tell me what to do? I can only feel...
    ... what? lol

    The person who said it is a male NF and this is a discussion entirely based on type. Gender has absolutely nothing to do with it, and if you draw misogyny from it, then you're the one framing it in that way and need to work through your own issues about it, because it's obsessiveness with an issue when you inject it into neutral discussions.

    My first question is what do you think of this idea of NF arrogance?
    I don't think it's arrogance so much as typical self-doubt that we tend to have, and it's hard to tell where the line between human stops and INFP starts on that issue. Introverted feelers would be more prone to feeling self-doubt, I guess. That could make sense. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. As far as feeling better than NT type thinkers at NT type thinking, that's absolutely not true. I've never felt that way ever in my life lol

    We might feel delusions of competency occasionally, but we're feelers. We feel lots of things. It's like asking a professional taster if they've ever tasted a kind of fruit. It's not based on actual reason, so I don't think saying we ever "think" we're better at something is that great of a way to put it. We may "feel" it, and that's irrational since it's a feeling. But don't we all do that? We do good at something and think it puts it at a higher level of capability than we are based on rational and objective reasoning?

    So on that part of the question, no, I don't think that's true. I think it might happen, but the conclusions drawn from it are wrong.
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    I don't follow that NFGeeks guy any longer. He is scary to interact with. Something is not right with that guy.
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    I think this is incorrect. I have also seen NT types be very arrogant in the wrong way, meaning they think their intelligence is the only type of intelligence. Is there a right way to be arrogant? If so I think Se doms might actually be that, because the way Se is arrogant actually serves a tangible purpose, and that is to swindle others.

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    "I also think it's possible NFs, and feelers in general, react to the negative stigma attached to feeling and emotions by inflating their perceived thinking abilities to compensate."

    I think this is it... especially true for the males... the word "perceived" might be a bit harsh though
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmj85 View Post
    This may have already been discussed, but I'm going to arrogantly skip to the end.

    Has anyone ever experienced inadvertent alienation? Sometimes I get the distinct impression that people simply don't like me for some completely indiscernible reason. This thread (and the observations of those close to me) has made me wonder if it is indeed to do with appearing arrogant. For example, I'm currently training to be a counsellor. The other week I got to practise my skills on a '''client''', and was praised for my performance. I was totally humbled by the experience because, long story short, I was dealing with a genuinely horrible thing. Truth be told I was fighting back the tears - as were my fellow students who were observing. I took the praise graciously and thanked people for their input.

    The week afterwards, people's attitudes had noticeably changed towards me... for the worse! Not everybody, but a few of my classmates are shunning me so hard that their disapproval is palpable. Now, I'm not usually one for giving much of a shit about what people think of me; I'm a good person who seeks to do no harm, so if someone takes a dislike to me, well... balls to them, but this? This is just weird. Did I come across as arrogant, or something?

    I also made the mistake of offering a small bit of constructive criticism (it was being pushed for) after another classmate had finished her practise session. I was met with silent but vehement disapproval. Recipient of said criticism (which was measured and fair - I'm a fucking INFJ, come on!) no longer speaks to me.

    Ugh. People.




    /rant.
    I often feel this way. I'm starting to see the arrogance others see in me as a value system I have for myself, simply put. Whenever I express myself, it's because I have thought and felt it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    NFs naturally feel arrogant sometimes, but we know as a negative emotion, it isn't ideal, so we have inner conflict. It's as simple as that.
    Yep. Always the inner conflict. It lessens as I grow older. Thank Goodness.

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