[MBTI General] What do INFPs think of INTJs?

[Siúil a Rúin]

This is fine as long as it is communicated. If, however, the disappointing act is followed by a day or two of silence from the INTJ then the INFP will probably start to think about straws, which is never good. Most of my experience with INTJs is from my INTJ dad. Personally, I'd like to be accepted with all my flaws. However, I'd rather be raged at for these flaws than written off.

Some people do shut people out from rejection. That's one reason why interactions are confusing. Trust and a baseline for the person's behavior is needed to interact sensibly. Personally, I like to allow people the freedom to approach me with what they need. That pent up shoulds and shouldn'ts is way too confusing. I keep it simple. If my friend wonders why I'm distant, they're free to ask and if I haven't much energy, they'll get a short response. They don't need to read into it, I'll give them the truth of it. I have absolutely no problem telling people 'no' for some reason, so it doesn't bother me when they approach me with questions. Just knowing that helps alleviate some of those anxieties. When someone I care about is having anxieties, knowing it doesn't affect me emotionally that much even though I do care. There is a place I can put it. Knowing they feel free with me is the primary goal.

I have to say that I have a strong enough relationship with solitude to understand the island bit, but find ways to have DSL, cable, and satellite available so I don't miss anything.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Why is that? Does it have to do with personalizing the criticism? Some criticism is a show of great respect and affection.

Because Introverted Feeling is their dominant function. Unlike Extroverted Feeling, they process emotions in terms of how they relate to them and not vice versa. So, everything is personal with them. They can not detach at all, I'll risk to say, and they have the greatest sensitivity that there is. If there is a type that is there to remind us that we are all human. And it were INFPs like Shakespeare and Milton that have shown us the true splendor of the human spirit. They indeed are the quintissential NFs.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Silence doesn't mean that you're being written off!

Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.

I agree. Neither the need for space and the need for reassurance can be assumed to be known since humans have not evolved telepathic abilities yet. The issue of trust comes in when after the person has clearly expressed their boundaries and needs, that the other person doesn't keep disbelieving what they have said. Also, just because someone needs a little reassurance, especially at first, doesn't necessarily imply that they are a bottomless pit of neediness. Early relationships especially go through natural testing phases where the two people pull away to see what they mean to each other. There can be a lot of confusion when there is a complete absence of reassurance during that phase. In that process we are talking more about degrees of reassurance, depending on types, but people in general require some degree of it at certain stages in relationships.

 

[Totenkindly]

I understand what JJJ was saying because I experienced that for a long time.

When growing up, my mother either said nothing (she was very quiet) or she's go off and sob to herself because I did or said something she didn't like. My father would say nothing either... unless he was being critical of someone or drunk. And both sides of the family had similar issues, where resentments were buried and people were just shunned or ignored if they had offended someone in the past. Feelings were not discussed, people were simply punished.

It took me years as an adult to get past the notion (emotionally, not intellectually -- my intellect grasped it, my emotions did not) that a lack of input was not necessarily a negative thing and that often many benign reasons underlaid the reason for the silence. And that even if there WAS a negative reason, it could still be discussed and dealt with, and silence was not something to be feared.

It's just that INxP thing -- if there is no data coming in, you can't tell WHAT on earth is going on. You need the constant steady flow of info so that you can discern truth FROM the situation, rather than imposing truth on the situation yourself. Without that flow, it's like having your senses cut off and anything could be going on out there.

 

[nottaprettygal]

It's just that INxP thing -- if there is no data coming in, you can't tell WHAT on earth is going on. You need the constant steady flow of info so that you can discern truth FROM the situation, rather than imposing truth on the situation yourself. Without that flow, it's like having your senses cut off and anything could be going on out there.

Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.

However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."

This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.

However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."

This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.

Couple of problems that this can come from.
1. Even if the individual establishes a pattern in which there is never cause for alarm, people will often impose their former patterns onto the present. For example it would be easy for someone with Jennifer's background to impose the pattern her father set onto her new relationships (not saying it does). This seems to happen the most with those patterns set during our childhood development before we learned how to emotionally cope.

2. The need for space is not initially communicated so the person who always stews about it creates 'that' pattern. From their point of view there can be a pattern of mistrust. If an INTJ or similar person wants to form a relationship with someone who is needy, it will require reassurance at first until the pattern of security is established, but at some point auto-pilot will work alright. It may be that the relationship isn't worth it, but some compromise is reasonable between any two people who value each other. I don't think it is hopeless.

 

[Totenkindly]

Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.

Oh. Sorry. If it helps, I wasn't actually thinking of any connection of the sort... regardless of how much the average INTJ might drink on daily basis.

However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."

It's more like a steady decline. Things are not stable, you're constantly readjusting to the current state of things. As long as past pattern(s) hold more cumulative data and weigh more than the current state of things, you can cling to the past pattern as the "probable, reasonable truth" -- but as soon as the current accumulation of data is more than what the past pattern was, the past pattern no longer feels good and anxiety occurs if you try to cling to it.

I think INxP is very susceptible to doubt, because of this; INxJ seems much more easily able to cling to a particular ruleset or valueset regardless of what the current circumstances might be.

This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.

Well, I'm describing a less-extreme variation. I think just ONE current incident where a phone call is not returned and someone goes neurotic is annoying to deal with as well... because it's unreasonable.

However, if there is past ambiguity with that person, or just with people in general, and the patterns have been suggestive that it's rejection/avoidance of some sort, then anxiety is much more likely.

Also, if there has been a persistent pattern occurring, it will start to occupy more and more weight even if altogether it doesn't weigh more than past experience. (For example, you've been friends with someone for ten years and have been able to trust them when they don't respond... but in the past month you've tried to contact them numerous times and they just refuse to return calls, e-mails, and whatnot... then this is suggestive that things have change, and anxiety will start to accrue, regardless of the "ten good years" that preceded it. There are different ways to interpret the avoidance -- "Is s/he okay? Maybe s/he's depressed? Did I do something to upset them?" -- but there is still a perceived "problem" occurring to deal with.)

For INxP, things are ALWAYS changing, and you regularly have to be filtering the data input to make sure you are connected with reality. You are not allowed to just "assume" things, regardless of the past; everything is open to change and reinterpretation.

I think INTPs take it a little easier, because of the Impersonal factor and they just sort of "ride" with the system. The INFPs tend to personalize everything, get more down on themselves, etc., and want to reach out and try to fix things and might end up causing a problem if nothing was actually wrong.

I agree that healthy INxPs can see past the anxiety and keep a "reasonable" perspective and approach resolving any anxieties in a balanced way. (I.e., they will investigate in order to determine whether their anxiety has basis, rather than freaking out or reacting out of emotional insecurity.)

 

[ptgatsby]

Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.

No, INTJs are absolutely capable of writing people off. I've seen it done many many times.

The problem is that the INTJ assumes that the other person is as independent and as likely to "walk off" as they are. The reality is that the other person never knows for sure if the INTJ is really walking away or just adapting to your incompetence.

What it really feels like is that the INTJ is simply deciding if you are worth the continued effort now that you've shown your idiocy. And listening to my friend/GF go off on people in private, that's pretty much what they are doing

My relationship is a balance of competency... But I'm still not allowed to load the dishwasher - I have not mastered the art of dish stacking...

 

[nottaprettygal]

The problem is that the INTJ assumes that the other person is as independent and as likely to "walk off" as they are.

Close. I don't assume that other people are equally as independent (although they SHOULD be). The truth is that I just don't care, and I'm pretty quick to say, "Meh, that's their problem."

 

[Metamorphosis]

Oh. Sorry. If it helps, I wasn't actually thinking of any connection of the sort... regardless of how much the average INTJ might drink on daily basis.

Damn you physical pleasures!

I'm a big energy drink...drinker... myself though...




Could someone clarify this, "writing people off" idea though? I think I know what you are talking about, but a good example would help a lot.

 

[Haight]

They think they're cuddly.

 

[raincrow007]

They think they're cuddly.

Eat more tuna fish.

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Could someone clarify this, "writing people off" idea though? I think I know what you are talking about, but a good example would help a lot.

"Writing off" in the insurance sense of the term. When a car is written off it's judged that the cost of repairing it would be greater than the cost of replacing it. Thus writing off a person/relationship means deciding that they/it are not worth the effort and abandoning them/it.

In further reply to the OP, I wouldn't worry about it too much. INFP's as a type are ridiculously forgiving and loyal, unless these qualities are continuously and unrepentently abused, or unless they're bitter INFP's. With bitter INFP's all bets are really off. But it takes a fair bit to make an INFP bitter, and they're not hard to spot.

 

[ptgatsby]

Could someone clarify this, "writing people off" idea though? I think I know what you are talking about, but a good example would help a lot.

Hrmm... Along the lines of being friends for a half decade, connecting over various topics (in my case, finance)... then starting a company and having it fail (in no small part due to my P and time issues!). The INTJ reaction isn't to revert back to the friendship, despite it being resolved on good terms - I was just at his wedding, and was even asked to help out... Another INTJ thing; to use whatever people resources are needed! The tendency is to 'write' off people far more than their failure implied. For example, I have an extremely high accuracy when predicting future events... but the interest in those kinds of discussions is gone now.

I don't know if that makes sense... I'm included, but I'm not included. Friends but... not exactly.

A stronger (and less healthy!) INTJ manipulation would include stuff like my GF flirting and being all sweety nice to someone who could help install stuff in our new apartment - but as soon as that guy left the job, she simply forgot his name (literal) and moved on to the next one.

Or an example of the more neurotic INTJ - working with someone who is disagreeable for a year plus without any real personal issues... but one issue crops up and it's all out war.

"Writing off" is more about the tendency to just change the relationship abruptly - up to and beyond the willingness for INTJs to cut others out of their lives (but very passive-aggressively, unless you ask them about it).

 

[Meursault]

My daughters are INTJ and INFP. They get along pretty well. The INFP accepts the INTJ as she is and admires her. The INTJ is a bit cold, but in a way the INFP can admire. The INTJ thinks that her sister is not an idiot and admires how well she draws. They're into the same kinds of fanfic.

In the case of my INFP daughter, if somebody close, including her sister, hurts her, they won't have to wonder about it for long because she will react emotionally pretty quickly. She may hide her feelings from the general public, but she does not hide them from people in her inner circle.

well, as an infp (until proved otherwise ) i would say that you have to be careful with translating how infps are around our families with how we are around anyone else in the whole wide world.

the person my family saw is not at all the person anyone else has ever seen (or will see); nor have i ever even felt like behaving that way around anyone else. they are the only people who ever saw my raw emotions, the only ones who ever saw me angry, and the only ones i have ever had screaming/ horrible/emotional fights with--i am not sure why that is, but that's how it is.

to ushername--if it was me, and as long as you weren't being bossy or intending to insult or belittle me, i would have no trouble with your being honest, forthright, strongly opinionated, or curt--so hopefully, your infp friend is probably ok with you

CAVEAT: my least favorite subject is myself, so if you are being those things about ME as the subject, then i might not be ok with it (but it depends, i actually can take criticism pretty well, so long as it is (1) deserved, (2) not mean-spirited, and (3) voiced by someone who has earned the right to criticize me).

i do disagree with cafe though that your infp would let you know by getting all emo about it. there was a thread about this on infpgc once--people seem to interpret infp troubles online as being how we are in real life (sort of like assuming because an introvert posts a lot, she is a chatterbox in real life).

online i can have terrible trouble picking up subtext, which makes me sometimes behave nervously and uncomfortably, so that i over react; but in real life i navigate interpersonal relations very smoothly. i never have trouble in real life picking up the subtext correctly--online it is like someone cut out my eyes and poured lead in my ears. i really feel very disabled in this medium. i can see why people might think i am always like i am online, but it is not so.

i doubt your infp just would tell you either, even if you asked-- at least not verbally--watch her nonverbal reactions, those will tell you best, if anything will, i think.

PS: i have read the whole thread now and lots of intj's and i am sure i am NOT an intj. the person who sounded the most like me was jivingjeffjones (go figure, heh).

PPS: toonia is impressive. i can see why substance prefers talking to her

 

[Metamorphosis]

Hrmm... Along the lines of being friends for a half decade, connecting over various topics (in my case, finance)... then starting a company and having it fail (in no small part due to my P and time issues!). The INTJ reaction isn't to revert back to the friendship, despite it being resolved on good terms - I was just at his wedding, and was even asked to help out... Another INTJ thing; to use whatever people resources are needed! The tendency is to 'write' off people far more than their failure implied. For example, I have an extremely high accuracy when predicting future events... but the interest in those kinds of discussions is gone now.

I don't know if that makes sense... I'm included, but I'm not included. Friends but... not exactly.

A stronger (and less healthy!) INTJ manipulation would include stuff like my GF flirting and being all sweety nice to someone who could help install stuff in our new apartment - but as soon as that guy left the job, she simply forgot his name (literal) and moved on to the next one.

Or an example of the more neurotic INTJ - working with someone who is disagreeable for a year plus without any real personal issues... but one issue crops up and it's all out war.

"Writing off" is more about the tendency to just change the relationship abruptly - up to and beyond the willingness for INTJs to cut others out of their lives (but very passive-aggressively, unless you ask them about it).

Ah, that sounds pretty accurate then. Although, for me, it rarely happens (to someone I know). The problem is that many people thinkt hey are friends with INTJs just because they hang out with them. So, it could be that they aren't getting written off, they were just never written on. I have written off people in the past though...

Moral of the story: Don't fuck up your relationships with us.

 

[cafe]

well, as an infp (until proved otherwise ) i would say that you have to be careful with translating how infps are around our families with how we are around anyone else in the whole wide world.

the person my family saw is not at all the person anyone else has ever seen (or will see); nor have i ever even felt like behaving that way around anyone else. they are the only people who ever saw my raw emotions, the only ones who ever saw me angry, and the only ones i have ever had screaming/ horrible/emotional fights with--i am not sure why that is, but that's how it is.

to ushername--if it was me, and as long as you weren't being bossy or intending to insult or belittle me, i would have no trouble with your being honest, forthright, strongly opinionated, or curt--so hopefully, your infp friend is probably ok with you

CAVEAT: my least favorite subject is myself, so if you are being those things about ME as the subject, then i might not be ok with it (but it depends, i actually can take criticism pretty well, so long as it is (1) deserved, (2) not mean-spirited, and (3) voiced by someone who has earned the right to criticize me).

i do disagree with cafe though that your infp would let you know by getting all emo about it. there was a thread about this on infpgc once--people seem to interpret infp troubles online as being how we are in real life (sort of like assuming because an introvert posts a lot, she is a chatterbox in real life).

online i can have terrible trouble picking up subtext, which makes me sometimes behave nervously and uncomfortably, so that i over react; but in real life i navigate interpersonal relations very smoothly. i never have trouble in real life picking up the subtext correctly--online it is like someone cut out my eyes and poured lead in my ears. i really feel very disabled in this medium. i can see why people might think i am always like i am online, but it is not so.

i doubt your infp just would tell you either, even if you asked-- at least not verbally--watch her nonverbal reactions, those will tell you best, if anything will, i think.

PS: i have read the whole thread now and lots of intj's and i am sure i am NOT an intj. the person who sounded the most like me was jivingjeffjones (go figure, heh).

PPS: toonia is impressive. i can see why substance prefers talking to her

Good points. A non-family member might not get the full-meal-deal on the INFP emotions. It's disconcerting as the family member sometimes. I forget that they only see one side of my INFP. They don't see her trying to rip her brother's throat out because he looked at her wrong after she had been forced to extrovert all day. :horor:

Outsiders tend to think that I don't understand or appreciate her and I'm sure I don't understand her completely, though there is a lot to appreciate, but I think that I understand her better than most- sometimes better than I want to. uch:

 

[JivinJeffJones]

Mothers and daughters. The drama never ends. It's a source of considerable shared amusement and bonding for sons and fathers, I can tell you.

 

[cafe]

Mothers and daughters. The drama never ends. It's a source of considerable shared amusement and bonding for sons and fathers, I can tell you.

At this point it's rarely personal toward me. She just leaks emotions all over the place so much and my Fe absorbs them and I don't like feeling them--I don't like feeling most of my own emotions, but I cannot block her because the bond is so strong. The lower level of emotional leaking is why I find NTs so much more comfortable to be with.