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  1. #41
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    This is fine as long as it is communicated. If, however, the disappointing act is followed by a day or two of silence from the INTJ then the INFP will probably start to think about straws, which is never good. Most of my experience with INTJs is from my INTJ dad. Personally, I'd like to be accepted with all my flaws. However, I'd rather be raged at for these flaws than written off.
    Some people do shut people out from rejection. That's one reason why interactions are confusing. Trust and a baseline for the person's behavior is needed to interact sensibly. Personally, I like to allow people the freedom to approach me with what they need. That pent up shoulds and shouldn'ts is way too confusing. I keep it simple. If my friend wonders why I'm distant, they're free to ask and if I haven't much energy, they'll get a short response. They don't need to read into it, I'll give them the truth of it. I have absolutely no problem telling people 'no' for some reason, so it doesn't bother me when they approach me with questions. Just knowing that helps alleviate some of those anxieties. When someone I care about is having anxieties, knowing it doesn't affect me emotionally that much even though I do care. There is a place I can put it. Knowing they feel free with me is the primary goal.

    I have to say that I have a strong enough relationship with solitude to understand the island bit, but find ways to have DSL, cable, and satellite available so I don't miss anything.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #42
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Why is that? Does it have to do with personalizing the criticism? Some criticism is a show of great respect and affection.

    Because Introverted Feeling is their dominant function. Unlike Extroverted Feeling, they process emotions in terms of how they relate to them and not vice versa. So, everything is personal with them. They can not detach at all, I'll risk to say, and they have the greatest sensitivity that there is. If there is a type that is there to remind us that we are all human. And it were INFPs like Shakespeare and Milton that have shown us the true splendor of the human spirit. They indeed are the quintissential NFs.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #43
    Senior Member JivinJeffJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    Silence doesn't mean that you're being written off!
    Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.

  4. #44
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.
    I agree. Neither the need for space and the need for reassurance can be assumed to be known since humans have not evolved telepathic abilities yet. The issue of trust comes in when after the person has clearly expressed their boundaries and needs, that the other person doesn't keep disbelieving what they have said. Also, just because someone needs a little reassurance, especially at first, doesn't necessarily imply that they are a bottomless pit of neediness. Early relationships especially go through natural testing phases where the two people pull away to see what they mean to each other. There can be a lot of confusion when there is a complete absence of reassurance during that phase. In that process we are talking more about degrees of reassurance, depending on types, but people in general require some degree of it at certain stages in relationships.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  5. #45
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I understand what JJJ was saying because I experienced that for a long time.

    When growing up, my mother either said nothing (she was very quiet) or she's go off and sob to herself because I did or said something she didn't like. My father would say nothing either... unless he was being critical of someone or drunk. And both sides of the family had similar issues, where resentments were buried and people were just shunned or ignored if they had offended someone in the past. Feelings were not discussed, people were simply punished.

    It took me years as an adult to get past the notion (emotionally, not intellectually -- my intellect grasped it, my emotions did not) that a lack of input was not necessarily a negative thing and that often many benign reasons underlaid the reason for the silence. And that even if there WAS a negative reason, it could still be discussed and dealt with, and silence was not something to be feared.

    It's just that INxP thing -- if there is no data coming in, you can't tell WHAT on earth is going on. You need the constant steady flow of info so that you can discern truth FROM the situation, rather than imposing truth on the situation yourself. Without that flow, it's like having your senses cut off and anything could be going on out there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #46
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's just that INxP thing -- if there is no data coming in, you can't tell WHAT on earth is going on. You need the constant steady flow of info so that you can discern truth FROM the situation, rather than imposing truth on the situation yourself. Without that flow, it's like having your senses cut off and anything could be going on out there.
    Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.

    However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."

    This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.

  7. #47
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.

    However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."

    This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.
    Couple of problems that this can come from.
    1. Even if the individual establishes a pattern in which there is never cause for alarm, people will often impose their former patterns onto the present. For example it would be easy for someone with Jennifer's background to impose the pattern her father set onto her new relationships (not saying it does). This seems to happen the most with those patterns set during our childhood development before we learned how to emotionally cope.

    2. The need for space is not initially communicated so the person who always stews about it creates 'that' pattern. From their point of view there can be a pattern of mistrust. If an INTJ or similar person wants to form a relationship with someone who is needy, it will require reassurance at first until the pattern of security is established, but at some point auto-pilot will work alright. It may be that the relationship isn't worth it, but some compromise is reasonable between any two people who value each other. I don't think it is hopeless.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nottaprettygal View Post
    Hmm. I don't love your example because I don't like to compare INTJs to alcoholic (abusive?) fathers.
    Oh. Sorry. If it helps, I wasn't actually thinking of any connection of the sort... regardless of how much the average INTJ might drink on daily basis.

    However, from my point of view, I don't see why data has to constantly be coming in to understand what's going on. You can focus on established patterns. "Okay, this person seems to be interested in talking to me, but then they occasionally retreat for a week or so. However, they always reappear, so they aren't speaking to me now because it is their time to retreat."
    It's more like a steady decline. Things are not stable, you're constantly readjusting to the current state of things. As long as past pattern(s) hold more cumulative data and weigh more than the current state of things, you can cling to the past pattern as the "probable, reasonable truth" -- but as soon as the current accumulation of data is more than what the past pattern was, the past pattern no longer feels good and anxiety occurs if you try to cling to it.

    I think INxP is very susceptible to doubt, because of this; INxJ seems much more easily able to cling to a particular ruleset or valueset regardless of what the current circumstances might be.

    This seems a lot more logical than thinking, "OH NOES! He didn't answer my phone call. He's mad at me!" It just rings of insecurity, and INTJs don't do well with dealing with other people's insecurities.
    Well, I'm describing a less-extreme variation. I think just ONE current incident where a phone call is not returned and someone goes neurotic is annoying to deal with as well... because it's unreasonable.

    However, if there is past ambiguity with that person, or just with people in general, and the patterns have been suggestive that it's rejection/avoidance of some sort, then anxiety is much more likely.

    Also, if there has been a persistent pattern occurring, it will start to occupy more and more weight even if altogether it doesn't weigh more than past experience. (For example, you've been friends with someone for ten years and have been able to trust them when they don't respond... but in the past month you've tried to contact them numerous times and they just refuse to return calls, e-mails, and whatnot... then this is suggestive that things have change, and anxiety will start to accrue, regardless of the "ten good years" that preceded it. There are different ways to interpret the avoidance -- "Is s/he okay? Maybe s/he's depressed? Did I do something to upset them?" -- but there is still a perceived "problem" occurring to deal with.)

    For INxP, things are ALWAYS changing, and you regularly have to be filtering the data input to make sure you are connected with reality. You are not allowed to just "assume" things, regardless of the past; everything is open to change and reinterpretation.

    I think INTPs take it a little easier, because of the Impersonal factor and they just sort of "ride" with the system. The INFPs tend to personalize everything, get more down on themselves, etc., and want to reach out and try to fix things and might end up causing a problem if nothing was actually wrong.

    I agree that healthy INxPs can see past the anxiety and keep a "reasonable" perspective and approach resolving any anxieties in a balanced way. (I.e., they will investigate in order to determine whether their anxiety has basis, rather than freaking out or reacting out of emotional insecurity.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Well, maybe it doesn't necessarily mean that, but I think it can mean that, after watching my dad pretty closely. Of course, he is a vietnam vet so he has a whole other set of shit to deal with.
    No, INTJs are absolutely capable of writing people off. I've seen it done many many times.

    The problem is that the INTJ assumes that the other person is as independent and as likely to "walk off" as they are. The reality is that the other person never knows for sure if the INTJ is really walking away or just adapting to your incompetence.

    What it really feels like is that the INTJ is simply deciding if you are worth the continued effort now that you've shown your idiocy. And listening to my friend/GF go off on people in private, that's pretty much what they are doing

    My relationship is a balance of competency... But I'm still not allowed to load the dishwasher - I have not mastered the art of dish stacking...

  10. #50
    Senior Member nottaprettygal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The problem is that the INTJ assumes that the other person is as independent and as likely to "walk off" as they are.
    Close. I don't assume that other people are equally as independent (although they SHOULD be). The truth is that I just don't care, and I'm pretty quick to say, "Meh, that's their problem."

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