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  1. #41
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    (Purely for the sake of discussion)

    I kinda feel similar to @PeaceBaby on this (although I want to take it a slightly different direction). I am not mad or irritated, but I do find it interesting how much this story is coloured by the INFJ lens. I can see what information is significant and useful to a INFJ reading. The thing is, I have none of the information that would actually help me interpret the situation, and it makes me realise how different our requirements are. I think anything the INFPs have said here can only be using generalisations (eg. about idealising people or feeling shut out of people's lives etc) and speculating on how that could have been a factor.

    In truth there is nothing in that story that explains why the INFP has acted as she has; it's just treated as a bunch of inexplicable actions, with imperceptible reasoning (which it is, in objective terms). OTOH the INFJs actions are treated as rather natural and self-explanatory (which it is, in objective terms). However, both these elements are precisely where I want to dig deeper. There will be much, much more to the whole thing. The INFP (whether right or wrong) will have a rational, cause-and-effect style explanation for how she behaved. Also, the INFJ (whether right or wrong) will have been communicating other implied feelings/thoughts/attitudes/impressions in her behaviour, that are not obvious and self-evident.

    For example, one of the few hints of meaningful information is: 'Meanwhile, INFP is bothered by INFJ's "busy-ness" ' . That's the sort of sign I look for that helps me to interpret it. I actually was thinking this may be a problem before I got to that part.

    What I'm trying to get across is how 'external' the description is. I can appreciate all those surface factors and can see that the INFJ's point of view. That stuff makes sense and I don't dismiss any of that. But by making it so 'external', it basically leaves the INFP at a disadvantage because her behaviour won't make sense by that criteria.

    I don't mean to drive the discussion off topic or to sound like I'm complaining. It's just a observation I wanted to make.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #42
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    (Purely for the sake of discussion)

    I kinda feel similar to @PeaceBaby on this (although I want to take it a slightly different direction). I am not mad or irritated, but I do find it interesting how much this story is coloured by the INFJ lens. I can see what information is significant and useful to a INFJ reading. The thing is, I have none of the information that would actually help me interpret the situation, and it makes me realise how different our requirements are. I think anything the INFPs have said here can only be using generalisations (eg. about idealising people or feeling shut out of people's lives etc) and speculating on how that could have been a factor.

    In truth there is nothing in that story that explains why the INFP has acted as she has; it's just treated as a bunch of inexplicable actions, with imperceptible reasoning (which it is, in objective terms). OTOH the INFJs actions are treated as rather natural and self-explanatory (which it is, in objective terms). However, both these elements are precisely where I want to dig deeper. There will be much, much more to the whole thing. The INFP (whether right or wrong) will have a rational, cause-and-effect style explanation for how she behaved. Also, the INFJ (whether right or wrong) will have been communicating other implied feelings/thoughts/attitudes/impressions in her behaviour, that are not obvious and self-evident.

    For example, one of the few hints of meaningful information is: 'Meanwhile, INFP is bothered by INFJ's "busy-ness" ' . That's the sort of sign I look for that helps me to interpret it. I actually was thinking this may be a problem before I got to that part.

    What I'm trying to get across is how 'external' the description is. I can appreciate all those surface factors and can see that the INFJ's point of view. That stuff makes sense and I don't dismiss any of that. But by making it so 'external', it basically leaves the INFP at a disadvantage because her behaviour won't make sense by that criteria.

    I don't mean to drive the discussion off topic or to sound like I'm complaining. It's just a observation I wanted to make.

    I see where you're coming from and agree that is colored through INFJ lens, because I didn't get the chance to see it through INFP eyes. I know only that INFP said that she felt like an "option" in INFJs world but she had made INFJ a priority in her world and she eventually no longer wanted to be an option. I believe that she felt the friendship was unequal. She wanted to to take priority in INFJs discretionary time. When INFJ told her that there was no discretionary time she started pointing out INFJs pre-existing circle of friends and saying "you don't have to spend so much time with them." When INFJ said they are like family to me. INFP was like...sure they are. I wish I could report more accurately what was going on in INFP but I wasn't on her end of the deal.

    I have learned things from these posts, things which may help me with my friendship with my real life INFP. I don't want her to feel second fiddle or like an option, but due to my family, my career, my writing and my martial arts school, we don't always get to hang out when she wants and we do have to schedule time because I'm duty bound and can't just do things on a moments notice.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  3. #43
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I see where yore coming from and agree that is colored through INFJ lens, because I didn't get the chance to see it through INFP eyes. I know only that INFP said that she felt like an "option" in INFJs world but she had made INFJ a priority in her world and she eventually no longer wanted to be an option. I believe that she felt the friendship was unequal. She wanted to to take priority in INFJs discretionary time. When INFJ told her that there was no discretionary time she started pointing out INFJs or-existing circle of friends and saying "you don't have to spend so much time with them." When INFJ said they are like family to me. INFP was like...sure they are. I wish I could report more accurately what was going on in INFP but I wasn't on her end of the deal.
    But even this I find odd. I want to understand where that's coming from, because grown adults aren't usually this (openly and outright) irrationally petty and jealous. There has to be a reason why she felt she should have priority. It makes me if the INFP somehow picked up some (real or imaginary) indication from the INFJ that the relationship was somehow 'special'.

    I just feel like I'm missing too many pieces of the puzzle to be able to make sense of it...
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    But even this I find odd. I want to understand where that's coming from, because grown adults aren't usually this (openly and outright) irrationally petty and jealous. There has to be a reason why she felt she should have priority. It makes me if the INFP somehow picked up some (real or imaginary) indication from the INFJ that the relationship was somehow 'special'.

    I just feel like I'm missing too many pieces of the puzzle to be able to make sense of it...
    I am sorry. I can't answer those pieces, because I don't know the answer...except, and this just came to me as I was typing. There have been incidences in my own life where I've shared some bit of myself with a person and that made them feel especially close to me, but I didn't realize they felt that way and didn't feel particularly close to them. I don't know if maybe there was some thing that INFJ dropped that INFP perceived as qualifying factor to make their relationship special. INFJ said they had deep and meaningful conversations but that at times they just got smothering and overwhelming. At any rate, all I can do for INFP is speculate and that not very well, because my function order and way of seeing the world are different.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #45
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I am sorry. I can't answer those pieces, because I don't know the answer...except, and this just came to me as I was typing. There have been incidences in my own life where I've shared some bit of myself with a person and that made them feel especially close to me, but I didn't realize they felt that way and didn't feel particularly close to them. I don't know if maybe there was some thing that INFJ dropped that INFP perceived as qualifying factor to make their relationship special. INFJ said they had deep and meaningful conversations but that at times they just got smothering and overwhelming. At any rate, all I can do for INFP is speculate and that not very well, because my function order and way of seeing the world are different.
    Yeah, some NFJs have had that effect on me, but usually I'm very conscious of the fact. I often deliberately back off and let them come to me a little, just so I can objectively assess the degree of interest they have in me. Maybe that's just the 4w5 way of dealing with it, though...

    But I think it's more than just that too. It seems like the INFP doesn't believe the INFJ when she says she has other people in her life that are important too. Why does she think the INFJ is being disingenuous? What makes her think she has priority? That's more than just feeling special to someone - it's feeling that your relationship precludes that person from having any other significant relationships. It's so strange and extreme.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  6. #46
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Yeah, some NFJs have had that effect on me, but usually I'm very conscious of the fact. I often deliberately back off and let them come to me a little, just so I can objectively assess the degree of interest they have in me. Maybe that's just the 4w5 way of dealing with it, though...

    But I think it's more than just that too. It seems like the INFP doesn't believe the INFJ when she says she has other people in her life that are important too. Why does she think the INFJ is being disingenuous? What makes her think she has priority? That's more than just feeling special to someone - it's feeling that your relationship precludes that person from having any other significant relationships. It's so strange and extreme.
    Perhaps INFP was in love with the INFJ and yearned for more intimacy?

  7. #47
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Fi becomes clingy, Fe doesn't want to be smothered. Sounds like the stereo type right?

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I can see what information is significant and useful to a INFJ reading. The thing is, I have none of the information that would actually help me interpret the situation, and it makes me realise how different our requirements are. I think anything the INFPs have said here can only be using generalisations (eg. about idealising people or feeling shut out of people's lives etc) and speculating on how that could have been a factor.
    There's no interiority to the INFP, agreed.

    Pi has painted a picture that leads the viewer to an almost inevitable Je conclusion. There's nowhere else for the story to go ... the details provided support a conclusion that has already been drawn. We walk down that path, we get the 'right' answer at the end, and when someone draws that same conclusion, they are rewarded with a pat on the head. Good job! How could any other conclusion be drawn? It wouldn't be rational.

    The reader has basically been led to see it the same way as the writer, because the depth of Pi has been able to flesh out enough evidence to support any less-deep Je conclusion presented forthwith. And I know that the intention is good, not even fully conscious, because why would anyone want to just hear that which supports a singular conclusion? I don't think Ene is trying to trick anyone here.

    I've been working on a germ of an idea, out of the long-term patterns of interaction (because I've seen this one quite often now) and it's just a whisper at the moment ...

    The tendencies: In IxFJ Je presents a judgement and Pi finds evidence to support it. In IxFP Ji presents a judgement and Pe looks for evidence to debunk it. There's a start place that each type launches off from, and each type needs to counter-balance that tendency. Pi must examine evidence to debunk Je, Pe must examine evidence to support Ji. It's not about just believing the primary function, but balancing it out. And there's a twist in the aux switch that I want to account for. Need more time on this one, this is incomplete, but if it feels like a launching-off place for more discussion, I will make a new thread.

    eta: Pi is wired to patterns, it feels the 'aha' of a pattern, Je presents a judgement, and Pi can then plumb the depths for supporting evidence. What would it look like in the opposite, what would alert Pi that Je is taking the wrong vs right road? What would alert Ji that Pe is driving? Ji forms continual judgements, looks to Pe for MORE information, 'prove me wrong' information, when is it time to act, state a judgement out loud? More food for thought.


    In truth there is nothing in that story that explains why the INFP has acted as she has; it's just treated as a bunch of inexplicable actions, with imperceptible reasoning (which it is, in objective terms). OTOH the INFJs actions are treated as rather natural and self-explanatory (which it is, in objective terms). However, both these elements are precisely where I want to dig deeper. There will be much, much more to the whole thing. The INFP (whether right or wrong) will have a rational, cause-and-effect style explanation for how she behaved. Also, the INFJ (whether right or wrong) will have been communicating other implied feelings/thoughts/attitudes/impressions in her behaviour, that are not obvious and self-evident.
    Agreed. It's the source of that flesh-crawly-feeling. That feeling alerts me, tells me the story is incomplete and biased in one judgement direction.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #49
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Ene will have to confirm or deny this, but I thought it was fairly clear by the fact that she is postulating this story to the forum that she, too, assumes that there may be some information here that is missing and unclear behind the INFP's behavior.

    I've had a lot of NFJs in my life, and one thing I know about them is they, unlike NFPs, tend to present a coherent story as they understand it up front. It does sound final and sometimes that can be aggravating to an NFP when our Ne clearly picks out the "trail" of missing information and our Fi tells us there's no way the story makes sense without more explanation. I did understand where PB was coming from when she said what she said. It felt like an injustice to the INFP to present her side of things as so clearly "wrong" and "irrational", when it can generally be assumed (and should be assumed until proven otherwise) that the INFP is also a person with hopes and pains and compassion, who very likely meant no harm to the INFJ, and who very likely also has a reasonable of a side of the story if we could only see it through her eyes.

    But Ni-Fe is like Ni-Te, it goes on what it has. It's a real-world function and it uses the parameters it's given to proceed; unlike Fi-Ne and Ti-Ne it does not prioritize ideal-seeking over external action. What the INFJ has here is what they can see from their own eyes. It's what they have... they don't have the INFP's story so they can't present the INFP's story. Because Fi-Ne has such a drive to present the "ideal", or totally right and balanced, story, NFPs cringe at the clearly unbalanced presentation, but I think it's crucial to note that the intention is not to present the finality, but to present the story to the external world, where it can be changed and reinterpreted as Fe retraces movement according to the new conclusions. NFPs would tend to couch this sort of thing in a ton of questions and uncertain language, because we don't assume ability to reinterpret or change Fi, as it is an internal thing and not open to external reworking. Whereas I think with Fe this is an inherent assumption...

  10. #50
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It's what they have... they don't have the INFP's story so they can't present the INFP's story.
    As in a court of law, is it not obvious we need that story?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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