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  1. #31
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Looks to me like two people with different needs from the relationship. It's okay for 'INFJ' to desire low-maintenance relationships because she doesn't want to make time for (additional) high-maintenance relationships. But it's just as okay for 'INFP' to be looking for a more high-priority spot in someone's life, and to not settle for scraps if she wants a full meal.

    I'd say it's not okay for INFP to tell INFJ she shouldn't hang out with other people if that cuts into INFP-time (even if INFP and INFJ were married I'd consider that a warning sign - it might just be a weirdly worded opening bid of 'dude, I'm lonely and I want to hang out with YOU because I miss you - can you clear your schedule a bit?' but it might be the beginning of a controlling relationship), but that it's also not okay for INFJ to disregard INFP as 'childish, despite being older' (INFP had legitimate needs and the situation, pure and simple, was that INFJ cared more about other things than meeting those needs - it's more intellectually honest to say 'I didn't want to spend the energy giving INFP what she wanted. I wish we could have had a mutually fulfilling relationship, but she needed what she needed and in the end my other commitments were more important to me than not disappointing INFP').
    This (bolded) is exactly what stuck out to me as well, and sounded a few warning bells.

    For the most part, I can relate to the INFP's side in the way that skylight described. I chalk it up to being least so instinct variant- and very occasionally (not often), with certain individuals, it does make me feel like a part of their people collection (I think Qlip is the one who has said this? because so variant folks tend to spread themselves thinner across more people) when I wish they craved more one-on-one time with certain individuals like I do myself. But I wouldn't try to guilt someone out of their own needs to accommodate my own- and if someone has a lot of friends and a full schedule, it's because it's serving some need they have. The very notion of someone trying to guilt another person out of their needs makes me feel very prickly- I realize it's not done with bad intentions, but I personally have a very short fuse for it. Overall the thing in the op is the kind of thing I'd file under 'incompatible'- just like the "having a crush on someone that's already taken"- and I'd move on.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  2. #32
    Senior Member Forever_Jung's Avatar
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    While I appreciate your intentions for this thread, I find these sort of anecdotal things very hard to analyze. Was this your own experience as an INFJ? The INFJ in this story definitely was given more of an internal life in your account, so I thought it might be possible. If this wasn't your own experience, that makes this a story about two people communicating via the internet, told by one of the parties to an outside party, who is now recreating the story to people on the internet through a typological lens. I think A LOT gets lost in translation here, and quite possibly, the INFP's side of things gets lost (her characterization isn't very dynamic here).

    After saying ALL of that, if this story is accurate, it seems like the INFP felt there was more of an attachment there than the INFJ felt.

    I might be totally wrong here, but I find Fi-users a bit "all-or-nothing" with their attachments. I am, at least. They tend to be initially hesitant to let people in, but when they do, they put ALL OF THEMSELVES INTO IT. I only have a few REALLY close friends, and I find I am consumed by the attachment. I daydream about them, I relate their experiences to strangers as if it was my own experience (I don't mean I say the events happened to me, I just mean it feels like I DID experience it when I'm telling it) and I just feel fused with them. It's almost like I'm under their skin.

    Mind you, they didn't ask for that level of commitment, I just have a hard time being friends "halfway". Sometimes I freak my friends out with very intense declarations of affection, which I totally mean, but can seem a bit daunting to match. And inevitably, if a friend can't match that level of intensity, things can feel weird. Because my feelings are very independent of theirs, I don't need reciprocation to express it. Hell, I don't even need to hang out with them, I spend a lot of time with them in my imagination.This makes me VERY prone to unrequited love, because once I get fixated on someone things just keep getting deeper and deeper, even when they start pulling back a bit. I feel a bit stalkerish sometimes.

    I want to matter to them as much as they matter to me, and if I feel like I'm a minor player in their life, I start to pout and get a bit resentful. Usually I can keep this in check, because I know that's my own hang-up, but there have been a few times that I have spoke up, and the other person apologizes but says simply that: sorry, this is as far as we go. It really stings, not that I blame them. But it certainly causes my insecure and childish side to flare up. It's getting better with age.

    If I had to extrapolate from my own experience (and I realize I'm technically an ENFP, but I'm pretty introverted for one), that is what I would guess is taking place. On the other hand, most of my friends complain I drift out of their life, then spontaneously reappear as if no time has elapsed. So I have a hard time relating to wanting so much of someone's time.

    From a more NFJ perspective,I notice my ENFJ mom tends to pick-up clingers and then always blames them for misunderstanding her. She describes them as almost parasitic, even though she frames it in a cozy, feely "understanding" way. I'm just busy, I'm tired, I do enough for people as it is, don't they get that? Well no, because you don't seem like any of those things when you're interacting with them. You treat the people you despise the same way you treat the people you like. I sympathize with her, but when you are persistently encountering a problem like that (everyone thinks I am more committed to them than I actually feel), you should probably examine your own behaviour. It doesn't mean you were doing it on purpose, or it's your "fault", it just means you are repeatedly getting your wires crossed with people.

    As I said, it's very hard to say.

  3. #33
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    A few of my experiences as an INFP that might relate to what this one went through:
    I'm really, really bad about idealizing friendships from the beginning and then being disappointed and hurt when it doesn't develop the way I want it to. (This has happened to me with different types, but it's most common in my relationships with FJs. I've also been in situations similar to the INFJ's, dealing with other xxFPs who pushed for a level of intimacy that I just couldn't grant them and then got angry at me as though I misled them.) I'm picky about who I befriend, and when I start to form a connection with someone who I like and can view as trustworthy, it feels like finding a needle in a haystack and I get really excited and start forming high expectations about the developing relationship. (But I rarely directly articulate this to the other person.) I think that compared to INFJs, INFPs are more optimistic and prone to forming expectations based on what they want to happen. In my case, this has led me to spend a great deal of time on certain relationships, expecting high levels of intimacy and mutual support, and then feeling "cheated" somehow when I can't get as close to the person as I thought I would. (In most cases, it's not intentional interpersonal deception; it's mutual misunderstanding with a dash of self-deception on my part.) Still, it's painful to discover that the strength of my attraction to someone (platonic or otherwise) isn't matched by the other person's, that someone who I value deeply and view as worth all the time in the world doesn't feel the same way. I've never been as insistent or pushed it as long as the INFP described in the OP (I'm more the type to wallow alone in my hurt feelings) but if I were more emotionally open I could see myself acting that way.

    My guess: in the early stages of the friendship when the INFJ had a lull in activity and plenty of time to spend on the INFP, the INFP got the impression that was how it would continue to be and formed an attachment to not only the INFJ herself, but also to an idea of what their friendship would be like in the future. (She sounds like an isolated person, and I know from experience that makes it a lot easier to fixate on certain people and idealize connections with them.) When the INFJ's life started picking back up and she had less time for the INFP, it felt like a betrayal on some level to the INFP, but she initially continued to push harder for a closer friendship because she didn't want to fully give up on having the connection she envisioned.
    Of course, I don't know this person - this is just speculation based on my knowledge of my own type.

    I agree with the opinion that the friendship between the INFJ and INFP wasn't meant to be - they wanted completely different things from it. Of course the INFP is entitled to feel however she wants, but (from what I can tell) I think she acted far too clingy and persistent. She should have respected the INFJ's boundaries more, and either ended the friendship sooner if she was so dissatisfied or kept up the casual friendship and looked elsewhere for the level of intimacy she wanted.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @Z Buck McFate, @Forever_Jung, @underwaterthing

    Each one of you have offered some very valuable insight. @underwaterthing I love your post and I appreciate the honesty in it so much. I think you have a good take on it.

    I have taken away a humorous notion from all of the interaction on this thread. Please, everyone, take it with a grain of salt and a light heart, but Ni users really should come with warning labels that read, "Sudden detachment imminent." And Fi users should come with a warning label that reads, "Sudden attachment imminent." Okay, don't throw words at me or anything. It just crossed my mind and I thought it was a comical look at our primary functions
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #35
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Ene, I hope you don't mind that I'm just all over your thread. For whatever reason this is a really fascinating one to me. Please rep me if you feel like I'm distracting from the OP; I don't always have the best sense of whether I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forever_Jung View Post
    I might be totally wrong here, but I find Fi-users a bit "all-or-nothing" with their attachments. [...] They tend to be initially hesitant to let people in, but when they do, they put ALL OF THEMSELVES INTO IT.[...] I just have a hard time being friends "halfway".
    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    I'm really, really bad about idealizing friendships from the beginning and then being disappointed and hurt when it doesn't develop the way I want it to.
    Are you guys in my head? Because I resonate soooooo much with these two perspectives. I am so like this too.

    My guess: in the early stages of the friendship when the INFJ had a lull in activity and plenty of time to spend on the INFP, the INFP got the impression that was how it would continue to be and formed an attachment to not only the INFJ herself, but also to an idea of what their friendship would be like in the future. [...] When the INFJ's life started picking back up and she had less time for the INFP, it felt like a betrayal on some level to the INFP, but she initially continued to push harder for a closer friendship because she didn't want to fully give up on having the connection she envisioned.
    I can totally "feel" how this could happen to an NFP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate
    For the most part, I can relate to the INFP's side in the way that skylight described. I chalk it up to being least so instinct variant- and very occasionally (not often), with certain individuals, it does make me feel like a part of their people collection (I think Qlip is the one who has said this? because so variant folks tend to spread themselves thinner across more people) when I wish they craved more one-on-one time with certain individuals like I do myself.
    Z Buck I think this is a really good point and I feel that too with certain people, even though I can people-spread myself sometimes. I had a friend in high school who I believe was also ENFP, probably also so/sx and almost certainly 7w6, who made me feel like this - for a long time I thought we were close friends, but she suddenly moved on and after that I always seemed like an afterthought to her, just one of many things and people competing for her attention. It was painful but I decided to let go of her as anything more than a distant contact. I still wish I could be close with her. She was so intelligent and fun. I was always left feeling like she didn't really care, though. I think the time I decided to mostly cut off contact was when I'd see her replying to her "new favorite" people on Facebook but she always seemed to miss my posts. I got the impression she still liked interacting with me but not as much as she liked interacting with others.

    To be honest, though, relating to variants, I think as Social-Sexual, I like 1-on-1 time with people but can only do it for a short (couple of hours) period of time with most people before I start to get drained - though there are about 10 or so people who I am 110% comfortable with 1-on-1 longterm, even energized by that. It's easy for me to do lots of "lighter" interaction, however. So when I'm arranging my life, I always prioritize those "special" people. I feel bad saying this, but I feel like I've done to others what the INFJ here has done, but it's not meant to be harmful. It's just... I already have my special people (and causes/events), and I know I enjoy being with them. The people who make it into that "inner circle" either have always been there (my nuclear family), or they've been/done something really special to have made it there. I feel like people sort of have to "earn" that.

    Like you've implied, maybe the INFP here had Sexual higher in her stacking (sounds like she could maybe be Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx?) and the INFJ had Social higher (sounds like she could be Soc-first?). It does seem like the patterns would fit. If that's true, it could also easily include a mismatch of "ideals", with the INFP thinking this was going to be something close and deep and the INFJ thinking this was going to be something special and flexible. I wonder if the INFP felt like she was securing a special role in the INFJ's life while the INFJ was feeling increasingly pressured, and those two feelings just didn't translate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ene
    I have taken away a humorous notion from all of the interaction on this thread. Please, everyone, take it with a grain of salt and a light heart, but Ni users really should come with warning labels that read, "Sudden detachment imminent." And Fi users should come with a warning label that reads, "Sudden attachment imminent." Okay, don't throw words at me or anything. It just crossed my mind and I thought it was a comical look at our primary functions
    Trueeee!!!

  6. #36
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Ene, I hope you don't mind that I'm just all over your thread. For whatever reason this is a really fascinating one to me. Please rep me if you feel like I'm distracting from the OP; I don't always have the best sense of whether I am.
    I don't mind at all. It's really not my thread. I just got the ball rolling I actually enjoy reading your input and appreciate the insight.

    I especially took note of this one and can see how that could very well be true.

    Sx/Sp or Sp/Sx?) and the INFJ had Social higher (sounds like she could be Soc-first?). It does seem like the patterns would fit. If that's true, it could also easily include a mismatch of "ideals", with the INFP thinking this was going to be something close and deep and the INFJ thinking this was going to be something special and flexible. I wonder if the INFP felt like she was securing a special role in the INFJ's life while the INFJ was feeling increasingly pressured, and those two feelings just didn't translate.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #37
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    @ underwaterthing, I love your post and I appreciate the honesty in it so much. I think you have a good take on it.

    I have taken away a humorous notion from all of the interaction on this thread. Please, everyone, take it with a grain of salt and a light heart, but Ni users really should come with warning labels that read, "Sudden detachment imminent." And Fi users should come with a warning label that reads, "Sudden attachment imminent." Okay, don't throw words at me or anything. It just crossed my mind and I thought it was a comical look at our primary functions
    Thanks. This thread has been enlightening for me about xNFJs (also Fe-users in general) and how they differ from Fi-doms when forming friendships and deciding whom to form intimate connections with. Despite being fellow NFs, those NFJs are damn hard to understand sometimes (which makes sense on a certain level, an NFP's first four functions are an NFJ's last four).

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Are you guys in my head? Because I resonate soooooo much with these two perspectives. I am so like this too.
    Yeah, it sucks being an NFP sometimes. <- I can't decide which of these smilies best expresses my feelings about this.

  8. #38
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Thanks. This thread has been enlightening for me about xNFJs (also Fe-users in general) and how they differ from Fi-doms when forming friendships and deciding whom to form intimate connections with. Despite being fellow NFs, those NFJs are damn hard to understand sometimes (which makes sense on a certain level, an NFP's first four functions are an NFJ's last four).

    Yeah, it sucks being an NFP sometimes. <- I can't decide which of these smilies best expresses my feelings about this.
    Both.

    I think being an NFP is like that super sad song that makes you feel incredible inside but it's still sad. It's like, great, we get to feel all this extra shit and not always be very adept at dealing with it, but hey, we get to feel all this extra beautiful shit.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Thanks. This thread has been enlightening for me about xNFJs (also Fe-users in general) and how they differ from Fi-doms when forming friendships and deciding whom to form intimate connections with. Despite being fellow NFs, those NFJs are damn hard to understand sometimes (which makes sense on a certain level, an NFP's first four functions are an NFJ's last four).



    Yeah, it sucks being an NFP sometimes. <- I can't decide which of these smilies best expresses my feelings about this.

    I agree. It does make sense on a certain level.

    I really think that Fe is just a vehicle for bringing Ni into existence. And I can see where that might seem calloused to others when they actually encounter it, because Fe allows an INFJ to appear smooth on the surface, but the inner world is in constant motion, constantly seeking universal connections, pieces to some huge puzzle, like a database doing an extensive search, looking for something but not knowing what until it clicks; maybe the theme is like in Casa Blanca...there are a whole more important things in the universe than the lives of two little people or maybe it's like Mr. Spock in The Wrath of Khan, where he exposes himself to radiation to save the ship and he tells Kirk, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." He sees an overall picture that is more important than how he feels. I don't know. I'm just tossing out ideas.

    We talk of functions often on here and I can't help but think that much of our needs, wants and perceptions are colored by the order of those functions. While INFJs are Fe users, they are primarily Ni users and that alone makes some connections very difficult for them. For me, I have a lot of trouble connecting with ISFPs and INFPs in real life, (I inwardly loose patience) although I do have one INFP long term friend. Mostly because she lives in my town and decided she liked me; I didnt put forth an effort to befriend her but she just kept popping up and although her Fi is through the roof and she wants to nuke everybody who ever hurt her feelings (or has hurt cats...she's a cat lady) she has this strange liking for me that baffles me. So, over the course of the last three years we have become friends and meet once a week for coffee. Recently, she took a function analysis test and scored a very strong INFP score.

    I think it's different for ENFJs but I'm not sure how just yet. They are a lot more expressive initially. I have a sister who scores ENFJ and she's got wonderful con-artistry, although she rarely uses them now. Still, she wields Fe like a blade and with great precision. She knows how to get people to do what she wants them to do. My cousin, also ENFJ, can walk into a restaurant and have total,strangers in tears. Lunch with her is like being on Oprah!

    I do know that in order to be a part of my long term inner circle, Ni has to be fed by the interaction. Does that make me a taker and a user? Maybe, but I also give, in hopes of a greater good. I am constantly digging for something deeper, but not an emotional connection, a spiritual one that goes beyond words or feelings. It can't be achieved by appealing to my emotions or even my logic. It can only be reached by touching the Ni, sparking some chord of universal truth that goes beyond explanation. Crazy? Most likely, but very true. It also means that I will constantly be surrounded by many people, but only be truly known by a few.


    EDIT: I just want to make it clear that I DO value my INFP friend ( cats and all) and I DO make quality time for her. I don't want our friendship to go the way of the one I wrote about and I don't think it will because we interact on a regular basis and we are only six miles apart, not 6,000. ?" We know we're different, but we work on it.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #40
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Both.

    I think being an NFP is like that super sad song that makes you feel incredible inside but it's still sad. It's like, great, we get to feel all this extra shit and not always be very adept at dealing with it, but hey, we get to feel all this extra beautiful shit.
    My boss is a verified ENFP. She gives people the benefit of the doubt, is compassionate and funny. I have never met an ENFP I didn't like
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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