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  1. #241
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Why is this thread still going?
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  2. #242
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    @ OrangeAppled @ PeaceBaby @ Eilonwy @ underwaterthing
    .....
    And those of you who have 1 in their wings, do you feel the (supressing\inhibiting) effect of super-ego on your ego?
    Yes.

    If yes, how...?
    I haven't read about Freud's ideas in detail, so my understanding of the superego/ego/id apparatus is pretty simplistic (superego=conscience/critical parent; ego=idea of self and the mediator between id and superego; id=instincts/desires).

    As a 9, I have a varied relationship with my 1 wing, which does feel like a critical parent that I have to please. When I'm average-to-healthy and have greater equanimity, I can take the pressure of the superego and it can feel like a positive guiding force (and it genuinely can be), and when I'm unhealthier and my sense of inner peace is far more fragile, the superego's demands can feel too intense and I end up temporarily suppressing it to try to feel better. (Of course this is completely maladaptive and makes things worse in the long run.) I have the classic unhealthy 1-ish problem of exercising such rigid self-control that I end up "cracking" and doing the things I was trying to avoid, and then responding by coming down even harder on myself than I did in the first place. Many of the superego's standards become egosyntonic and I consciously have them as my standards of right and wrong, but at other times I feel inhibited or guilty when I don't think I should, like I've internalized standards that don't have anything to do with how I truly view morality.

    .........

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Interesting. I haven't noticed this much in ENFJs. I've seen a lot of deflection from them, but they usually try to do so with joking & flattery. I think this is typical to varying degrees with average to unhealthy INFJs.
    I've known a few ENFJs who I suspect were at least mildly narcissistic. I've seen the projection and anger come out in bursts behind closed doors and then quickly get smoothed over again. Healthy ENFJs (especially my 2w1 friend) are some of my favorite people though.

    YES. I see this & it frustrates me. Being e4, my sensitivity there comes through more as an anger. 9s don't allow themselves to get mad as much, which has its own plusses.
    I do get angry when I suspect I'm being condescended to or manipulated, but it's much harder for me to show it compared to a 4. It gets filtered out before it gets to the surface and ends up coming out much later in weird ways. (Example: out of nowhere I'll relive the memory in public and I'll end up accidentally giving some random person the evil eye.) Unfortunately, the emotions I'd like to hide more often (like anxiety) are plainly visible to others.

    No, I think you were right to begin with. Extroverts adapt more than introverts, who try to make or at least want the external to adapt to them, or will remain indifferent to it. (*this is why socionics is wrong to say Pi-dom share behaviors that Jung & MBTI associates with Pe).
    Yes, this is why I haven't found socionics convincing. I love its function descriptions (Fi is spot-on IMO), but then I also relate to the INFp (NiFe) description far more than the INFj (FiNe) one. The INFp description I read sounded like nothing like an INFJ to me.

    The problem with INFJs is if they won't see an outside perspective & you can't reach them with a value-concept (reason in Fe style), then you're dealing with someone who can be extremely irrational with tunnel-vision. This is hard when you're a dominant rational & trying to use lines of reasoning with someone. This conflict exists less with INTJs because of shared Te/Fi I guess & perhaps because the intuition is less people/value-focused, so it's not rubbing Fi territory the wrong way.
    Yeah, I can see this. In general, I find INTJs the most intellectually brilliant type, but it's precisely because their intuition is less values-focused and our focus/interest areas are usually different that I don't find them as inspiring as INFx types. I find them more abrasive than INFJs, but I also find that they don't make me as angry as xNFJs can on occasion.

    The more I encounter INxJs online the more it seems like INFJs are more likely than INTJs to develop mental tunnel vision. I don't know if this is a real pattern in those types or if I've just seen an atypical sample of INxJs. I would have to read more about Fe/Ti and Te/Fi to come up with any theories about this possible difference that don't feel like stabbing in the dark.

    My sense of self is not as tilted consciously....but I do internalize negative stuff & it sort of comes back to me as some self-criticism. Not until I was older did I realize this. In the moment I can be angry & reject it, but it's like I soaked it up as a sponge & it will leak out as if it originated in me. This is why I am aware that even if someone consciously does not feel hurt by something, it does not mean its not hurtful; things can affect people in ways they are not immediately aware of & may have difficulty tracing the source of later.
    I do something like this. Sometimes I have trouble separating 'valid self-criticism according to my own standards of what I should be' versus 'internalized external criticism' which is perfectly valid at times and ridiculous at others. Even sometimes the ridiculous criticism that is completely off-target or trivial can get to me and bend my standards of what I think I should be.

    What I notice in e9s is sometimes a conflation of personal taste & moral judgement, as if it's mean or even wrong to dislike anyone, and so you must suppress or transform distaste for someone into some measure of acceptance of them, even if it's just in the form of their potential. I've seen many a 9 with a posse of undesirables clinging to them because the 9 is the only one able to tolerate them & offer some measure of friendship.

    As a 4, you tend to do this conflation in an opposite way - it's almost morally offensive to have bad taste . But feeling outcast in some way can make you compassionate to those undesirables also, but I think there are more barriers to keep you from being over-burdened by it.
    about the bolded: I've done this for most of my life, but I've been slowly growing out of it for the past few years. Trying to suppress negative judgments of others (even when they're justified) has actually led to a lot of nasty, passive-aggressive behavior and black-and-white thinking on my part. I would end up in friendships/relationships with people who were wrong for me because of my tendency to mentally gloss over their undesired qualities (for thoroughly selfish reasons), but then my buried (and much intensified) negative feelings would rise up and take over completely, so I would end up swinging back and forth between liking the person and feeling like I hated them. I've learned that I'm sparing both others and myself a lot of grief if I just allow myself to view them honestly in all their shades of gray, and that it's much better to gently reject somone if they're not right for me rather than letting a well-meaning but untruthful relationship drag on. Funny how something that appears to be a sweet and innocent trait (idealizing others) can have such an ugly flip side.

    I think the e9 reluctance to reject anyone stems from a feeling of being inferior to others. Sometimes there's this feeling of "I don't have the right to judge anyone".
    I'm trying to accept rejection without taking it as a blow to my essential worth. (It's mainly rejection by select individuals I admire that gets to me; most social rejection hurts my feelings but doesn't wound me.) I know that both e9s and e4s struggle with low self-worth, but they try to boost it in opposite ways. I haven't read much about the "soul child" theory, but it makes sense that 3 would be the soul child of an e9; on a certain level e9s feel that everyone has value but them, so it makes sense that in order to obtain a sense of being valuable, e9s feel like they have to impress others or find similarities with them.* This is why rejection even based on admittedly personal judgments ("you're not for me") rather than universal ones ("you're a bad person") hurts so much, and why I can be reluctant to judge others. My sense of value is sometimes tied to whether or not others like and respect me, and part of me assumes that others are same. (Thankfully, many aren't.) While I think e4s also want acceptance deep down, they have more layers/defenses over it - they actually try to find a sense of personal significance through their differences and separation from others, especially if w5.
    *It's not that e9s are empty or have no true selves, it's just that unhealthier ones "ignore" their deepest selves.

    Anyway, in this post I'm getting really off-track, but it's from that track that diverged from that other track that deviated from the original track, so at this point I don't really care.

    I think honoring your personal preferences & tastes even if it "disqualifies" some from a relationship with you is not "mean" because it's not devaluing someone's worth. It's more like "doesn't suit me".
    Definitely. I've been trying to make this sink in for years now, and I get a little better at it all the time.

    About the "peon in their vision" thing - INFJ won't experience it as selfish or using people. They usually think this vision is for some greater good & will not see self-serving aspects of it (which will be well-hidden to many observers as well).
    I'm not talking exclusively about INFJs now, but I used to have a tendency to take others' good intentions at face value while trying to find alternate explanations if it appears that someone has selfish or malicious intentions. I still have this to a degree, and it's another "innocent" trait that can have negative consequences.
    Occasionally though, I'll see unhealthy FJs who seem so obviously selfish and manipulative that I can't believe others buy into the way they're selling themselves as this altruistic, morally superior person. Then I find out the person isn't intentionally deceiving others - they actually believe they are who they're pretending to be.
    I am in awe of healthy Fe though because I suck so much at it.

    So I don't know if they're "equally insightful" about people as individuals. You could say that about any type; you can say they're X in "their own way", which may not be untrue, but it makes it hard to note general strengths & differences on a pattern level.

    Absolutely. I think the problem with Ni is when it's not informed by Je though. This is more troublesome for INFJs, IMO, because bad Feeling is often harder to spot as distorted than bad Thinking, and it can be manipulated to appear as something positive even if it's not. Contrary to popular belief, Fe is very much in service of the self, because it's part of the individual's ego no less than other type's dom/aux functions. So when Fe is mostly in service of Ni, it can force-fit things or ignore it/cut it out/run from it if it can't be fit. It's not a real harmonizing (or making sense) of the environment that good, rational Feeling does.
    True.

    Yes, but as Fi-dom, we don't necessarily do this. We can stop with an idea & tunnel deep into its meaning & significance, which is something of another angle on one idea (exploring ways of valuing it, especially by being aware it can have different values in different contexts, as if you use Ne to bring in another context on the same idea so as to grasp a more fundamental value & not just a contextual one.) With Fi in service of Ne, I just think there's far less "bouncing", and more exploring until something seems significant to go deeper with, and as you go deeper, Ne continues to bring in more contexts to keep going deeper, not bouncing to something else.
    I like how you articulated this, especially the bolded. (As a 7-fixer and generally distractable person, I think I do quite a bit more "bouncing" than most INxPs though.)

    If there's anything I've taken away from this thread it's that I have a lot to learn about Ni. It seems like everyone has a different take on exactly how to define it, and even Jung's Ni description has things in it that I would take with a grain of salt.

  3. #243
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    "For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly."

    I've heard and read the same from other INFPs.
    From what I've learned recently, most INFPs are this way when forming value judgments about others, but I think it's mainly the e9s who also take a while to even form personal opinions.

    "They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening."

    So this is the INFP standing up for the underdog; and does the "erased/buried" relate to a values landmine, or is it more typical of an E4 or an E9 INFP (the two most common types) ?
    I think most of what I wrote better describes an e9's attitude toward judging and being judged. Compared to e4s, our sense of self is more vulnerable to being warped by others' perceptions (the "feeling erased/buried" thing). The part about standing up for others who are being unfairly judged seems to be common for INFPs of all e-types though, except for the really unhealthy, wimpy e9s who avoid conflict at all costs.

    Also, with the "erased/buried" thing, I wasn't thinking of a values landmine going off, just a feeling of being completely misapprehended; in my experience, when someone crosses an INFP's values that usually leads to anger rather than a feeling of being erased. I actually have a very clear sense of myself when someone crosses my values. I feel like this:

    "For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)"

    This sounds like what I've heard from INFPs -- also that in relationships, INFPs sometimes have a tendency to idealize the partner, (doing what in *other* people would be called either "denial" or "hoping against hope"), until they get smacked upside the head by contradictory reality one...too...many...times.
    And then, watch out. (Or the INFP, fearing this pattern, either avoids relationships or prematurely sabotages them.
    )
    Yeah, I've done this and I've seen it in many other INFPs as well.

    I wonder what would happen should someone who approximates the INFP's ideals fairly well, gets in a relationship with them?
    Because INFPs' values are so central to who they are, when seeking a relationship, compatibility of values is at or near the top of our must-have lists. It doesn't necessarily mean it would work, but it would be a very strong foundation. For an INFP who finds a suitable person, there would likely be some initial "is this too good to be true?" doubts if they have the kind of bad relationship history you brought up. I can't answer from personal experience because I've never been with anyone whose values approximated mine.

    Thanks for your comments.

  4. #244
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    @underwaterthing --

    The more I encounter INxJs online the more it seems like INFJs are more likely than INTJs to develop mental tunnel vision. I don't know if this is a real pattern in those types or if I've just seen an atypical sample of INxJs. I would have to read more about Fe/Ti and Te/Fi to come up with any theories about this possible difference that don't feel like stabbing in the dark.


    This is *VERY* rare for me, but I cannot at the moment locate a prior posting/quote of mine on this subject.
    I apologize.

    The difference, to my mind, is that Ni is common to both INFJ and INTJ : but it is fed a bit differently, and, more importantly, the INFJ and INTJ react to it differently.

    Typically the INTJ (arrogant jerks that they are), are *so* used to being right, that they don't often "back-check" the insight that Ni gives them, before blurting it out.
    This leads to problems when the INTJ is young, or is inexperienced in the area they are applying the Ni *to*.

    The INFJ, has more social polish (Fe), so they don't have the brusque blunt brash rudeness of the INTJ. But, when they have an Ni "AHA!" moment, they remember
    to back-check it before blurting it out; unfortunately, when they back-check it, they do so using Ti, not Te: so if their insight is true in their own mind and heart, in
    their *own* personality, they consider it as universal.

    The INTJ, on the other hand, if called out on Ni (respectfully, or just drawing their attention to the *facts*) will more-or-less happily go "oh well, back to the drawing board"
    and seek to incorporate the new facts into their internal database for use in future Ni meanderings. However, for some reason, the INFJ, if confronted, acts a bit more
    like an INFP after you've stepped on a values land-mine: it gets rather *personal*, rather *quickly*...

    Just my $0.02 at no charge. Remember, "anything free comes with no guarantee." Your mileage may vary.
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

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  5. #245
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @underwaterthing --

    The more I encounter INxJs online the more it seems like INFJs are more likely than INTJs to develop mental tunnel vision. I don't know if this is a real pattern in those types or if I've just seen an atypical sample of INxJs. I would have to read more about Fe/Ti and Te/Fi to come up with any theories about this possible difference that don't feel like stabbing in the dark.


    This is *VERY* rare for me, but I cannot at the moment locate a prior posting/quote of mine on this subject.
    I apologize.

    The difference, to my mind, is that Ni is common to both INFJ and INTJ : but it is fed a bit differently, and, more importantly, the INFJ and INTJ react to it differently.

    Typically the INTJ (arrogant jerks that they are), are *so* used to being right, that they don't often "back-check" the insight that Ni gives them, before blurting it out.
    This leads to problems when the INTJ is young, or is inexperienced in the area they are applying the Ni *to*.

    The INFJ, has more social polish (Fe), so they don't have the brusque blunt brash rudeness of the INTJ. But, when they have an Ni "AHA!" moment, they remember
    to back-check it before blurting it out; unfortunately, when they back-check it, they do so using Ti, not Te: so if their insight is true in their own mind and heart, in
    their *own* personality, they consider it as universal.

    The INTJ, on the other hand, if called out on Ni (respectfully, or just drawing their attention to the *facts*) will more-or-less happily go "oh well, back to the drawing board"
    and seek to incorporate the new facts into their internal database for use in future Ni meanderings. However, for some reason, the INFJ, if confronted, acts a bit more
    like an INFP after you've stepped on a values land-mine: it gets rather *personal*, rather *quickly*...

    Just my $0.02 at no charge. Remember, "anything free comes with no guarantee." Your mileage may vary.

    I think this is a rather good analysis. I also agree that in my experience, INFJ's are more likely to get tunnel vision and unable to be reasoned with (on and offline). For reasons I do not understand, Fe seems to be side-stepped and ignored with a good number of INFJ's outside of anything that is "gentle and easy", which is why over improper use of Ti is often observed in them. That said, I don't think INFJ's are given enough credit for their use of Fe. Fe and Te actually have rather similar structure to them. Thoughts are supposed to be subjecated to the framework and system/network that Fe has established. The downside is Fe is less scrupulous than Te and the entire framework can be busted, so when it gets sent to Ti it's all buggered up.
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  6. #246
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noon View Post
    I wonder if it's alright to raise a question here.

    I really like INFPs for better or worse, especially INFP 4s. My worry is that we might conflict a lot over framing, not necessarily over content. Does their getting on with FeTi types have more to do with person-specific ideals than an Fi perspective in general? Assuming both sides are similar in personality, to what extent can clashes in perspective be avoided?
    Generally, I do best with people who don't make too many assumptions and who are able to grasp that individuals don't all feel/think/see the same. People who think they read people well don't usually do well with me, because I don't send out "standard" signals. It's always disheartening when I think I'm getting close to someone & they just get it all wrong...they say something & it's like, "wow, you don't even know who I am". I'd really rather they just ask.

    But 99.9% of the time, I tend to like whoever genuinely likes & accepts me. I'm pretty easy like that.

    I'll feel like FJs get stuck on the little stuff too much. The things they'll judge character on just blows my mind. It's like everything is a symbol for something (Pi) and then there's a pre-formed value attached, without stopping to consider if there could be another reason which would give a different value & to take contexts into account more, but I realize that's me being FiNe. I suppose I find their way problematic because it seems like I get unfairly judged & nitpicked by it.

    I realize IxFPs are often moody in a way unrelated to the immediate context, & it's hard to know what's really important to us (ie. value mine bombs), so this can make people feel on eggshells, but I feel on eggshells with FJs. It's because of the assumptions. It's assumed everyone knows X & if you're not adhering to X, then you're just being difficult, rude, defiant, etc. Or X means Y, so if you do X, then you're Y. But for an INFP, the motivations are so detached from these assumptions; I'm often entirely unaware of them.

    I also don't like people who dish it out, but can't take it. I can be cantankerous, argumentative, fiery - but I can take it from someone else too. I feel like many FJs will dish it out & not be able to take it at all. This is also where I may do better with TJs.

    It's not really a clash in perspective, then, but an unwillingness to allow another perspective (ie. more of a Pi/Pe clash maybe, or even Pi/Fi). I don't have the need for agreement & consensus that FJs seem to have. I don't really want to avoid clashes, necessarily. What makes me uneasy with conflict is the sense that others will not tolerate it & work through it, but that there's some cutting off of you or your voice. So it's more like I do well with people willing to clash & work it out, not always avoiding it.
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  7. #247
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I read this last night and it makes my flesh crawl.

    Like many a story that comes through an INFJ lens, it is colored with a perspective that paints most thoughts and actions from the INFJ side as being correct, proper, loving & giving, set with 'appropriate' boundaries that are violated by others (but only because the INFJ is so 'loving & giving' they can't help but bend over ass-backwards for other people), angled from the additional perspective of overworked, under-appreciated martyr.

    It reeks of the crap you read at ~Personalitycafe~ and tumblr about how amazing and perfect INFJs are. They're so thoughtful and loving, they'll tolerate and heal anyone (especially those godawful, clingy, socially inept INFPs - notice how the perpetuators are always INFPs?) even if said person doesn't respect the INFJs socially acceptable limits. So of course, it's the INFJ that's so gracious and thoughtful enough to endure the intense emotions of the person even if they genuinely have their own problems.

    Ughhh, seriously, being INFJ doesn't mean you're god's gift to people (especially INFPs). I can read right through the OP. It's extremely insincere to tolerate someone for so long at the expense of your own needs then turn around and complain about them taking up your time and energy. The person in question (whether INFP or not) had their own needs and you obviously couldn't give it to them so, in that case, be an adult and you let the friendship end slowly. Don't turn around and whine that you gave up so much of your time because you felt guilty or because it was socially unacceptable (or whatever) despite your hectic lifestyle.

    My INFJ and ISFJ friends are honest about who they give their time to, they don't bother with people who demand more than they can give.

  8. #248
    Senior Member oneandonly's Avatar
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    I thought this was a very interesting thread...

    As giving as an INFJ can be... to ask for so much is really putting us into a corner.

    Regardless of type As an adult, you are supposed to learn that people have other priorities and they balance their time and energies as best they can.

    So I can't say I have a terrible amount of respect for a person who doesnt firstly respect my tasks and my gift of time.

    All of my friends have kids... are married.. I'm single and lonely, but I would never get mad at them for not calling or texting. weve been friends for 10 years.. It is understandable that they arent available..

    To my idea of life, you apply all to your children and your significant other.. so that would be okay. they are doing GOOD for their families.

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