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  1. #231
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    So it's true!
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  2. #232
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypatia View Post
    I suspect a person I know is an ENFJ. What causes this?
    I certainly am like this. Adacemia is my life, and if I can find the energy, I would love it to be my life until I die. I'm also somewhat of a social climber. I can offer an idea of why this might be common. It might seem strange, but there's actually a number of Fe doms in the chemistry department here at my school. My PhD adviser is an ENFJ 3w2 actually.

    The thing with Fe, is it needs to be useful, or at least feel useful. Productivty and progress is immensely important to Fe doms. Unlike Te though, progress is much more loosely defined and in some cases can actually be personally defined. This progress also needs to be seen externally. The feeling of a "good job" is nice, but that alone isn't enough. There must be an external sign, label, affirmation, etc. from others or some sort of. Academia by it's nature has a lot of this. Much more so than in other areas. What's also appealing is you can cultivate a method of working fairly easily, which is nice because while Fe will listen to external structures and obey them, it doesn't mean it will just accept it and not attempt to change/shift it to better work for what it needs. Fe can have an absolute bitchfit if it tries to do something it just can't do. It's much more difficult to do so in other work arenas. I think this is a defining difference between Te and Fe doms actually. Te is much better at dissociating from a system it sees as flawed or unlikeable. It will see it as something that just needs to be accepted (most of the time), and work with it/within it. Fe doesn't acquiesce as easily, and is much more stubborn. It will bitch, piss, moan, and complain until they are either told "OBEY" or they can manage to shift it around. It's much worse if they Fe-dom has to be completely subordinant. Even then it will still complain/vent in other ways to help deal. Academia isn't that stratified despite what others outside of it tend to think, and in the ways that it is stratified, it's actually quite hush hush "oh, we don't talk about who is king around here, you just know", and Fe is quite good at figuring that sort of thing out and getting it. In essence, the lifestyle of academia can feel wonderful to an Fe dom. The hard part is getting there, because academia also requires a lot of Ti out of an Fe dom, and if ones ability to use and understand Ti is very poor it can be a disaster. In particular when one must solo it.

    Social climbing I think doesn't really need an explanation.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In the best sense, this is why Fe is correctly called "rational". It sounds cold & detached to describe it this way, since feeling deals so heavily with people & has connection to emotion, but it's also validating it as more than just emotion & sympathetic response.

    It's actually cool that you can break down Fe in this way, because we don't often get much discussion of it around here. We have far less ENFJs here than other NFs & very few ESFJs, who discuss theoretical stuff minimally if at all. Jung's Fe description has some of the most bias in it (a weighty argument for him NOT being INFJ, IMO), and you have to read between the lines a bit to even understand HIS argument for Fe as rational. When you hear echos of it in someone's description of being Fe-dom, then it helps clarify how it actually plays out in reality in someone's mindset.

    Many ENFJs I know in person are not altruists (although they are people-people & nice), but academics or even social climbers of sorts. I would even see the more altruistic ENFJ as more principled than soft-hearted.

    And yes on the ego being self-serving in every type, which I mean less as "selfish" rather than seeing how it's formed to give yourself relation to reality & consciousness (both in & out). Fe is making sense of or ordering reality in terms of value in relation to the Fe person still, because it's what makes sense to that individual, even if they see or experience their valuations as being objective.
    I've been studying MBTI for years so I have the experience, I just usually keep myself quiet on this stuff cause I have been horribly wrong in years past and get shell-shocked easily. Honestly though, I think all types should be explained from a cold-detatched standpoint. It's more clean that way. If you think about it, every type has the ability to be emotional, or non emotional, and you see all different kinds. There isn't much of a pattern with how that is displayed, so it doesn't make sense to use that as a basis or tool for sorting out type by that. If someone is emotional, the way in which they are and go about it could be indicitive of a type. It's a one-way street really; you can fit the person to the type, but not fit the type to the person. Personality is just very linked with emotions, so it's hard (and to some it just seems downright wrong so they refuse) to tease the two apart, but I think it's something that really needs to be dealt with as it's own package.

    I read some of Jung's work a few years ago, but I found it dreadfully hard to follow. The way he writes is so hard for me to grasp and figure out. I honestly didn't get much out of it. Most of what I have gathered from it has been from others sort of translating what he's saying.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
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  3. #233
    The Typing Tabby grey_beard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Just some thoughts - I still have a lot to learn about cognitive functions so a lot of this might be inaccurate. Part of the reason why I'm posting it is so I can hear feedback, so feel free to point something out if it strikes you as wrong.


    A lot of this relates to what @skylights said previously.

    A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.
    For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly. They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening. For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
    I guess my main theory is:
    Because IxFPs are so sensitive to being judged, and also because 1) their own inner experience with using (inferior) Je suggests that it's very final and judgmental and 2) the flexibility of Ni in the healthy INxJ isn't always externally obvious, the judgments of the INxJ can come across as offensive, closed-minded and arrogant to those IxFPs who don't understand the INxJ's strategy of forming a single, dynamic vision (which has nuances that are difficult to articulate) instead of juggling multiple possibilities and waiting to form judgments like a Perceiver (esp. NP). This sensitivity can come across as prickliness or "boo hoo, poor me" egocentric hypersensitivity to INxJs. Similarly, INxJs can miss the depth in the IxFP's microcosmic way of thinking, understanding people, and forming values; also Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

    Another general clash:
    - To some Ne-users, Ni+Je can appear too inflexible (even though it's not if the individual is healthy). I believe that to some Ni-users, Ne (especially without Ti) can seem like mentally bouncing around the room at 100 mph.
    - As previously touched on, INFPs tend to view the self as a microcosm through which others can be understood, and I think this approach can seem too limited to the INxJ and their more macroscopic approach.

    - These are generalizations and, assuming they have validity, there are still going to be exceptions in every case.
    - What I said about INFPs forming judgments slowly can be thrown out when someone crosses their deeply-held personal values. In that case, we can be VERY judgmental.
    @underwaterthing -- Post of the thread.
    Just a few brief comments while I'm blown away.


    A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.


    Just. D@mn. I've been dissected completely. I guess this is how other people feel when an INTJ analyzes them.

    For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly.

    I've heard and read the same from other INFPs.

    They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening.

    So this is the INFP standing up for the underdog; and does the "erased/buried" relate to a values landmine, or is it more typical of an E4 or an E9 INFP (the two most common types) ?

    For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)

    This sounds like what I've heard from INFPs -- also that in relationships, INFPs sometimes have a tendency to idealize the partner, (doing what in *other* people would be called either "denial" or "hoping against hope"), until they get smacked upside the head by contradictory reality one...too...many...times.
    And then, watch out. (Or the INFP, fearing this pattern, either avoids relationships or prematurely sabotages them.)
    I wonder what would happen should someone who approximates the INFP's ideals fairly well, gets in a relationship with them?
    "Love never needs time. But friendship always needs time. More and more and more time, up to long past midnight." -- The Crime of Captain Gahagan

    Please comment on my johari / nohari pages.

  4. #234
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Yeah certainly... though it appears I disarmed myself in the process... There's still left-over shame but it's more about myself than others... I try very hard not to offend people and when I do I try to make amends and apologize... When I offend people I mostly feel guilt I guess... The shame is more about myself not being able to stand up for my own rights more...being fearful and weak... It's an ongoing process though...
    Yeah, it is an ongoing process. Are there specific reasons why you don't stand up for your own rights more? I, personally, am really bad about it with my family. I'll always be the baby of the family no matter what my age. Sometimes the hierarchy seems set in stone. Also, I feel that I need their goodwill while I'm taking care of our mom--my older siblings have more of a bond with each other than they do with me, and have taken sides against me before. However, once I got past my own excuses about why I couldn't or shouldn't just tell them "no", and told them "no", it generally worked. "No" doesn't seem to mean "no" to my oldest sister, though--she's of the school of social thought that says that you never know if no means no or if it means yes, because you're supposed to agree to what's socially expected of you whether you really want to or not--so I have resigned myself to saying "no" to her a lot.

    It's OK to cut oneself some slack sometimes... It helps to develop Ne...
    I don't know about the Ne part, but, yes, it's okay to cut yourself some slack sometimes. And it's also okay to cut others some slack sometimes, too.

    If someone asks you a favor and you agree to it, then that's your decision and it's good to stick with it... If you did best and the other party doesn't appreciate at least your effort, then it would be good to not grant them favors anymore... There are also people who are quite adept at using other people's triggers to make them do favors... If you detect such a pattern (if it becomes too frequent or too one-sided), it would be OK to deny the favor too... some people have no qualms about taking advantage of others...

    It's just knowing and honoring one's own preferences and not rewarding\enabling others who violate them...even after you tell them not to...

    Well there are people around me who have no qualms about calling others paranoid, delusional or the sort and threaten to beat them up and still don't feel guilty enough to apologize or make amends... or other people who make fun of others based on intelligence or skill or lack thereof and don't feel guilty to make amends... So I can see that their conscience doesn't carry as much burden as mine does...

    I see around me that people offload their negative emotions onto others quite easily like yelling, belittling, cussing, intimidating etc...and they don't feel remorse for that... It seems to have become the norm... The guys superior slanders him, and then the latter offloads that negative feeling to whomever he perceives to be weak around him like his subordinate or his wife or his children or a dog even... It's considered normal in my country... Similar things are also happening in this forum... So as far as my country and this forum is concerned, the average feeling of remorse and conscience seems to be below my that of my own...
    Some of the lessons I've learned throughout my life concerning the theme of others not living up to your expectations of them:
    1) Everyone is doing their best. They really are. Some people's best is pretty shitty, but it is the best they can do at that time with what life has dealt them. And if you look at them through that lens, that this person in front of me is doing the best they can with what they have, then it's easier to be compassionate towards them. Easier to see what burdens they might be carrying. Easier to withhold judgement of them, which also makes it easier to work with them instead of simply cutting them off. And, it lessens the feelings of fear, frustration, and defensiveness. Most people are not deliberately trying to make your life more difficult; they are just trying to live their own lives the best they know how. Are there people you should be wary of? Yes, but they are fewer than you think. This doesn't mean that you let people treat you badly, but that you don't automatically see them as a potential enemy that you need to defend yourself against. It actually helps in setting appropriate boundaries because now those boundaries aren't being set out of fear or anger.

    2) It takes two people to create a dynamic. The only one of those two people that you can realistically change is you. Change yourself and the dynamic changes, too. It might take a few tries and some time, but it can work. However, it's not always easy to make the necessary changes, and sometimes the dynamic never reaches a healthy level. And it's not that you're changing for the other person, you're changing to better yourself. You're taking control of the situation, and, in the process, you're teaching people how you want to be treated. For example, my brother-in-law used to call everything I liked stupid. The music I like--stupid. The books I read--stupid. The TV shows or movies that I like--stupid. I used to get defensive and angry and either clam up or try to argue with him. Still, everything stayed stupid. But then I changed the way I looked at the situation. He actually was doing this to a lot of people and not just me. So, I started wondering if maybe he was the one who felt stupid and I started treating him with a bit more respect and compassion. I made sure to compliment him when he deserved it, was honest with him when he asked for my opinion, but didn't harp on his mistakes. If he called something I liked stupid, I would try to calmly change the subject. I haven't heard the word stupid directed at me for a while now. Sometimes you can ask people for what you want and they'll comply, but sometimes you also have to look at how your own behavior is affecting the dynamic.

    3) Constantly question if you can even live up to your own standards. And if you can't, you shouldn't expect others to. I can be hypocritical, so it would be even more hypocritical of me to expect others to never be hypocritical. That doesn't mean I can't point it out when I see it, but it does mean that I shouldn't be condescending about it.

    You do teach people how to treat you (I watch too much Dr. Phil). I wasn't the most normal kid in the bunch, but I never really got bullied. I'm not exactly sure why, but I figure I gave off some sort of vibe. Do you remember my story about showing up after school when a girl in my class threatened to beat me up? I'm sure that helped in some way. I also learned to ignore or deflect most taunts early on. It seemed to me that one of my brothers made it his mission to make me cry because he would tease me incessantly. Then one day his teasing failed to bother me. I don't remember what might have led up to that change in me, but when he couldn't get me to cry anymore, he eventually stopped teasing me.

    All of this is easier said than done and I still fail at it sometimes, but, if I put out the effort, it does become more automatic.

    Yeah there are parts of me that I am still ashamed of, which makes me vulnerable to external feedback by others... In time, I hope I'll overcome them so that my own emotional integrity and sanity will be less dependent on how other people treat me but how I really feel about myself...hopefully...
    That's a good goal. It may be one of those that you never completely reach, but always keep moving towards.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #235
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Are there specific reasons why you don't stand up for your own rights more? I, personally, am really bad about it with my family. I'll always be the baby of the family no matter what my age. Sometimes the hierarchy seems set in stone. Also, I feel that I need their goodwill while I'm taking care of our mom--my older siblings have more of a bond with each other than they do with me, and have taken sides against me before. However, once I got past my own excuses about why I couldn't or shouldn't just tell them "no", and told them "no", it generally worked. "No" doesn't seem to mean "no" to my oldest sister, though--she's of the school of social thought that says that you never know if no means no or if it means yes, because you're supposed to agree to what's socially expected of you whether you really want to or not--so I have resigned myself to saying "no" to her a lot.
    Well it's a bit different for men... Some men take no as a sign of disrespect of their authority and status, and try to get physical... So it's basically due to my fear of conflict and lack of faith in my physical capabilities to fight... I've never been in a fight before, don't know how much I can take and give in return... It seems that I don't have this internal drive to smash someone's face or hurt them physically, the urge is not there...

    I am thinking about enlisting to Aikido or something similar so that I can learn a method to defend myself physically at least...

    I don't know about the Ne part, but, yes, it's okay to cut yourself some slack sometimes. And it's also okay to cut others some slack sometimes, too.
    Well I already do from time to time...

    Some of the lessons I've learned throughout my life concerning the theme of others not living up to your expectations of them:

    1) Everyone is doing their best. They really are. Some people's best is pretty shitty, but it is the best they can do at that time with what life has dealt them. And if you look at them through that lens, that this person in front of me is doing the best they can with what they have, then it's easier to be compassionate towards them. Easier to see what burdens they might be carrying. Easier to withhold judgement of them, which also makes it easier to work with them instead of simply cutting them off. And, it lessens the feelings of fear, frustration, and defensiveness. Most people are not deliberately trying to make your life more difficult; they are just trying to live their own lives the best they know how. Are there people you should be wary of? Yes, but they are fewer than you think. This doesn't mean that you let people treat you badly, but that you don't automatically see them as a potential enemy that you need to defend yourself against. It actually helps in setting appropriate boundaries because now those boundaries aren't being set out of fear or anger.
    I don't see them as potential enemies... I treat them with respect regardless of status... Actually I come across as too respectful with respect to the prevailing culture and some "men" take that as a sign of low self esteem start treating me as their inferior... I've come to notice early telltale signs of those who might be trouble and who might not though...

    2) It takes two people to create a dynamic. The only one of those two people that you can realistically change is you. Change yourself and the dynamic changes, too. It might take a few tries and some time, but it can work. However, it's not always easy to make the necessary changes, and sometimes the dynamic never reaches a healthy level. And it's not that you're changing for the other person, you're changing to better yourself. You're taking control of the situation, and, in the process, you're teaching people how you want to be treated. For example, my brother-in-law used to call everything I liked stupid. The music I like--stupid. The books I read--stupid. The TV shows or movies that I like--stupid. I used to get defensive and angry and either clam up or try to argue with him. Still, everything stayed stupid. But then I changed the way I looked at the situation. He actually was doing this to a lot of people and not just me. So, I started wondering if maybe he was the one who felt stupid and I started treating him with a bit more respect and compassion. I made sure to compliment him when he deserved it, was honest with him when he asked for my opinion, but didn't harp on his mistakes. If he called something I liked stupid, I would try to calmly change the subject. I haven't heard the word stupid directed at me for a while now. Sometimes you can ask people for what you want and they'll comply, but sometimes you also have to look at how your own behavior is affecting the dynamic.
    Sorry, but it still sounds to me as if you've started catering to his needs and buttered him up... I'd rather tell him how what he did affected me and notified him that if he kept going on like this, I'd have to disengage from him... There should be a line between respecting one's needs and enabling them...

    3) Constantly question if you can even live up to your own standards. And if you can't, you shouldn't expect others to. I can be hypocritical, so it would be even more hypocritical of me to expect others to never be hypocritical. That doesn't mean I can't point it out when I see it, but it does mean that I shouldn't be condescending about it.

    You do teach people how to treat you (I watch too much Dr. Phil). I wasn't the most normal kid in the bunch, but I never really got bullied. I'm not exactly sure why, but I figure I gave off some sort of vibe. Do you remember my story about showing up after school when a girl in my class threatened to beat me up? I'm sure that helped in some way. I also learned to ignore or deflect most taunts early on. It seemed to me that one of my brothers made it his mission to make me cry because he would tease me incessantly. Then one day his teasing failed to bother me. I don't remember what might have led up to that change in me, but when he couldn't get me to cry anymore, he eventually stopped teasing me.

    All of this is easier said than done and I still fail at it sometimes, but, if I put out the effort, it does become more automatic.
    I can be more compassionate and understanding for other's shortcomings (wrt my standards) when they only affect me... However, when their shortcomings have the potential to affect others (the system) negatively, I become more didactic than compassionate...

    About teaching people how to treat me, some does not want to learn... They feel they do not have to conform to others or inhibit themselves... They do not see it as their problem...

  6. #236
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    I wonder if it's alright to raise a question here.

    I really like INFPs for better or worse, especially INFP 4s. My worry is that we might conflict a lot over framing, not necessarily over content. Does their getting on with FeTi types have more to do with person-specific ideals than an Fi perspective in general? Assuming both sides are similar in personality, to what extent can clashes in perspective be avoided?

  7. #237
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Not before you do this...

    http://www.sociotype.com/tests/
    Okay, @yeghor. I tried to take the quiz (twice) but only got to 67%--where you begin choosing pictures. I can't figure out HOW to choose the pictures-can't get past the first one. I've tried clicking on the picture, moving the slider, looking for a hidden arrow--can't do it. Apparently I'm too dumb to figure out how to complete the quiz. What type does that make me?

  8. #238
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazelsees View Post
    Okay, @yeghor. I tried to take the quiz (twice) but only got to 67%--where you begin choosing pictures. I can't figure out HOW to choose the pictures-can't get past the first one. I've tried clicking on the picture, moving the slider, looking for a hidden arrow--can't do it. Apparently I'm too dumb to figure out how to complete the quiz. What type does that make me?
    It seems to work only in certain browsers ... I started the test again in Google Chrome and it worked then. Good luck!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  9. #239
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Not before you do this...

    http://www.sociotype.com/tests/
    @yeghor

    EII

    (Thanks to everyone who sent suggestions on how to get those pictures to move. btw... Did anyone else NOT have a preference for the people in the pictures...I just sort of clicked on them randomly because I did not have a strong preference.)

  10. #240
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hazelsees View Post
    @yeghor

    EII

    (Thanks to everyone who sent suggestions on how to get those pictures to move. btw... Did anyone else NOT have a preference for the people in the pictures...I just sort of clicked on them randomly because I did not have a strong preference.)
    Thanks could you participste in the call to action for INFJs thread as well?

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