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  1. #211
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I'm not going to address these points cause A. these aren't something I feel I should address before someone else does (it's not my place for this post), and B. I'm so exhausted that I don't have the energy at the moment, but I do have to say this much:

    A huge potion of this is extremely patronizing, and quite frankly completely uncalled for. Even worse it's not even accurate. You do this to pretty much everyone you encounter that doesn't agree with you or challenges you; analyze them (very poorly) and tell them they're broken, hurt, burying things, lacking self-insight, etc. really just short of saying they're dumb. It's an almost guaranteed way to piss someone off. It's also super passive aggressive (which very few respond well to). Put more simply: it's mean and nasty. To be perfectly honest, if I were OA, I'd be fuming, and if she is, she has every single right to be.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think the higher Ni and Si is in the function stack, the higher the superego strength is in an individual...
    actually that's just a normal early stage in human development:
    During the pre-logical stage of Ego development, the Superego acts as a very restrictive parent, however as successive stages of cognitive maturity are attained, control passes from the Superego to the Ego, unless normal development is thwarted. With greater freedom from Superego constraints and greater self-awareness, cognitive processes play an expanding part in the developing sense of morality, and this is culminated by an active searching towards a Universal Ethical System. At the post-conventional levels of Ego, Moral and Spiritual development, the Ego is gradually overcoming the Superego, until a stage is reached whereby the Superego no longer plays more that a passive role and the subject operates on an Ego Morality, rather than a Superego Morality. A fully-realized person has gained Ego Autonomy and overcome the Superego.
    so why would Si/Ni cause stagnation in the ability to develop independent thought,self critisizm and ethical understanding outside of the interjection of parents and authority figures? i suppose some of the lamer descriptions of Si elude to a cross over between Si and interjection - with quite a bit of semantic stretching and overextending the metaphor of Si being "everything past related" to death - but the notion of Ni's fluidity and ability to see the world afresh with each point of data selected don't fit at all, it doesn't outright contradicts it (though it can if you applied the same semantic stretching you'd need to do to Si), but it certainly doesn't suggest it.

  3. #213
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    ^^

    Yes to this!

    That's why I hate the compliment "you're a nice person". The niceness of my outwards behaviors is self-serving, so I don't deserve a compliment for that, and it's separated from the niceness of my heart (that I don't let anyone see but that motivates other things that I do and like to be appreciated for).
    The English are the least self-serving people in the world. They are genuinely nice.

  4. #214
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    @yeghor
    I already told you that I cannot take you seriously. Your grasp of these typology theories is so comically bad (including your grasp of Fi, which is not even in the ballpark) and your melodramatic psycho-analysis on my supposed motivations & character make an even semi-serious conversation impossible. Suffice to say - I know the difference between an ENFJ & INFJ, and I quite like ENFJs both online & offline. There are even INFJs I like (gasp!), but that doesn't mean I can't see negative patterns in a type. You're making this personal also, just short of name-calling (I am full of myself?). Stop that NOW; I will not tolerate it.

    You know that thread about people sending hints about not wanting to be engaged by another poster? Time to take some hints, dude.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #215
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post


    @yeghor
    I already told you that I cannot take you seriously. Your grasp of these typology theories is so comically bad (including your grasp of Fi, which is not even in the ballpark) and your melodramatic psycho-analysis on my supposed motivations & character make an even semi-serious conversation impossible. Suffice to say - I know the difference between an ENFJ & INFJ, and I quite like ENFJs both online & offline. There are even INFJs I like (gasp!), but that doesn't mean I can't see negative patterns in a type. You're making this personal also, just short of name-calling (I am full of myself?). Stop that NOW; I will not tolerate it.

    You know that thread about people sending hints about not wanting to be engaged by another poster? Time to take some hints, dude.
    He is going down the Ni rabbit hole. Use your Ne to break him out of it instead of shutting him out. (if you want to)

  6. #216
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    If I wasn't so drained, I'd reply to more of this, but this something I definitely had to make mention of. As an Fe dom, I have to say this is extremely true. One of the biggest things I balk at and dislike about descriptions of Fe and ENFJ's is the idea that they are so big on service to others, and to causes. It's true for some, but I'd hesitate to say the majority. I certainly don't anyway. Fe is a systemizer, much like Te, but it does so in a more subjective manner, and it often involves people (an inheriently subjective thing). It wants things to be ordered, make sense, work well, and ultimately be efficient. To Fe, having others and groups work well and be happy is simply seen as efficient and right most of the time. It makes sense for everything to be that way. It's not the end goal (unless that was explicitly decided on before hand), but something that is often needed or wanted. This is why it's often seen that Fe is there to serve others, because their actions and desires sort of require this "alutristic approach" in order to satisfy what it wants. Ultimately, it wants things to work well, based off what is defined as "well", and that is indeed a self-serving purpose. However, because Fe very much does not want it's negative sides to be seen, this will be quickly covered to make it seem like its serving others. That's not to say Fe's are selfish creatures and nothing else, that's not true at all, but it ultimately seeks to fulfill the self's needs first; all types do that. Interestingly enough, as a side effect of covering, it's not uncommon for an Fe to lose touch, or be completely unable to tell what it's own motivations are in the first place; the self or others? For all the ways I (and others) consider myself to be highly self-aware, in other areas it's kind of shocking how much I am not at all. It's quite easy for me to lose touch and be unable to tell why I want, feel, or do something when I get very focused on it.
    In the best sense, this is why Fe is correctly called "rational". It sounds cold & detached to describe it this way, since feeling deals so heavily with people & has connection to emotion, but it's also validating it as more than just emotion & sympathetic response.

    It's actually cool that you can break down Fe in this way, because we don't often get much discussion of it around here. We have far less ENFJs here than other NFs & very few ESFJs, who discuss theoretical stuff minimally if at all. Jung's Fe description has some of the most bias in it (a weighty argument for him NOT being INFJ, IMO), and you have to read between the lines a bit to even understand HIS argument for Fe as rational. When you hear echos of it in someone's description of being Fe-dom, then it helps clarify how it actually plays out in reality in someone's mindset.

    Many ENFJs I know in person are not altruists (although they are people-people & nice), but academics or even social climbers of sorts. I would even see the more altruistic ENFJ as more principled than soft-hearted.

    And yes on the ego being self-serving in every type, which I mean less as "selfish" rather than seeing how it's formed to give yourself relation to reality & consciousness (both in & out). Fe is making sense of or ordering reality in terms of value in relation to the Fe person still, because it's what makes sense to that individual, even if they see or experience their valuations as being objective.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #217
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grey_beard View Post
    @Ene -- go ahead. Your avatar is *cute*.

    Oh, *eye* contact. Never mind.
    Yeah, but just wait til she turns those creepy electric blue eyes on you! (She says thanks btw)
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #218
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    @grey_beardHaha....then grok away, my friend. I love your chess description and yeah, that's what it's like. I will employ you as a translator when I need to send a message, except with the real life Fi dominant. But I'm doing okay with that one.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #219
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    OK but it how come something that they accepted at childhood be their basic fear? Isn't it like saying INFJs basic fear is being fat and they accept that they should be fat at childhood... How can they embrace what they fear at childhood? Does that make sense?
    Not really, no. I have trouble following your train of thought and how all these ideas are connected in your mind.

    My best guess is that you think MBTI and Enneagram are interrelated in a way that differs from the common understanding. That makes it very hard to make sense of anything you're saying, because it is based on a very subjective (if not esoteric) take. You need to explain your underlying theories, before I can interpret your applications of them.

    Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
    Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
    Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
    Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
    Premise 5 - Enneagram 4 description fits with cognitive function Fi and has "nothing" to do with Fe nor Ni
    Premise 6 - INFJ has Ni-Fe
    Conclusion - Therefore INFJ type could not be of the enneagram type 4 as a main type

    It's interesting that you are choosing to focus on the first 2 though...
    I particularly focus on the first 2 because they don't belong in that reasoning. They aren't a source of evidence for this theory; they're problems that create doubt. You treat them cogs in the machine, when they're actually spanners in the works. The fact that you are a INFJ 1 means you are biased, and will make it harder for you to appreciate how a INFJ 4 might think. I'm not saying you can't make educated guesses about that, but it will create some uncertainty that should be addressed/acknowledged. Disregarding the potential bias is bad enough, but including it as additional proof of your argument is just bizarre.

    Ok... INFJ = Ni-Fe so Ni in charge and Fe subservient to Ni... What does Ni mainly do and how may Fe be helping Ni? What is it that they do basicly?
    *sigh*

    Why don't you tell me? I have no idea what this has to do with anything.

    Because enneagram 4 is focused on the self, if you check the descriptions, not on others... Codependent are focused more on others' needs than their own...
    OK, true. But how is it that INFJ descriptions frequently mention that the type is "introspective"? How could a INFJ ever be introspective if they only think of others?

    It's true... It's Fi's doing... Trying to build up a unique identity... I am doing it nowadays as well...
    Again, you're being way too literal. That's like me saying that whenever I help others I'm using Fe. One function can achieve the same results as another through entirely different means. Cognitive Functions describe ways of seeing and processing information; they do not denote or determine resulting behaviour. Yes, there are patterns of behaviour but they are very broad. For example, one person could dedicate their life to charity, whereas another person of the same type could use the exact same thought processes to become a serial killer.

    Which I disagree with...
    So what, are they ALL mistyped because they don't fit into your theory? You have to take a look around at the reality. If the theory requires you to disregard or completely repurpose huge swaths of evidence to the contrary, perhaps you should consider the possibility that the fault lies with the theory and not the evidence.

    Yes, but similar drives should concentrate around similar types...
    Not to the degree you're claiming.

    Perhaps for "Fe" when 4 is not the main type but the second or third... In the primary position it is impossible...As for Ni, 4 has nothing to do with Ni...
    I showed you that list of 4 traits and you agreed that they can line up with the INFJ type. By extension you could infer that there's something in Ni and Fe that fits with the 4 type, couldn't you?

    Goddammit, isn't external type descriptions valid for reasoning...? Using myself as benchmark makes me notice inconsistencies about this whole issue and those description on the net seem to reinforce my suspicions...

    There's also evidence that there's an overabundance of 4s on this forum according the official statistics, half of whom turn out to be INFJs and the other half IxFPs... How's that even possible?

    There's also the issue of you liking enneagram 3s as your polar opposites... which means enneagram 3s may be which MBTI type?

    There may be enneagram 3s mistyped as 4s and at the same time mistyped as INFJs in MBTI causing this overabundance...

    Anyway, I think 4s and 3s should settle this between each other... I personally think that the true INFJ population of this forum is actually %10-20 of what it appears to be...
    Who says any of these issues are directly related?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #220
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    OK, true. But how is it that INFJ descriptions frequently mention that the type is "introspective"? How could a INFJ ever be introspective if they only think of others?
    Because INFJs try to adjust themselves to accommodate others' preferences and needs...thru introspection... That is "the" Ni-Fe mechanism... Fe detects others' needs and preferences and Ni does the adjusting internally...It's a "reflex" learnt during childhood...

    I showed you that list of 4 traits and you agreed that they can line up with the INFJ type. By extension you could infer that there's something in Ni and Fe that fits with the 4 type, couldn't you?
    No I couldn'T... because of the Ni-Fe mechanism I described above... Enneagram 4 is NOT about that mechanism...

    Who says any of these issues are directly related?
    Thru Ni, I do...

    What MBTI type do you think enneagram 3s may be?

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