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  1. #191
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
    Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
    - MBTI is about cognitive functions, while Enneagram is about core issues. Different people of the same Myers-Briggs type can have different core issues. Many INFJ descriptions overemphasize e1 and e2 traits and underemphasize the e4/5/6/etc traits that often appear in that type. Similarly, I've read INFP descriptions that are so heavily tilted toward 9-ish issues that many INFP 4s would barely recognize themselves in it.

    - What defines an INFJ is that they have Ni (introverted iNtuition) as their dominant function and Fe (extroverted feeling) as their auxiliary. Certain combinations of cognitive functions tend to correlate with certain traits and issues, but that doesn't mean that EVERY single person of a type will have the same traits/issues. That's why there's so much variance in how different people of a single type will relate to a particular type description.
    So altruism and perfectionism may be common traits for INFJs, but that doesn't mean those traits are part of what defines INFJs. There are plenty of INFJs who are not altruistic and perfectionistic.

  2. #192
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    What defines an INFJ is that they have Ni (introverted iNtuition) as their dominant function and Fe (extroverted feeling) as their auxiliary. Certain combinations of cognitive functions tend to correlate with certain traits and issues, but that doesn't mean that EVERY single person of a type will have the same traits/issues. That's why there's so much variance in how different people of a single type will relate to a particular type description.
    What does this Ni-Fe do basically?

    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    So altruism and perfectionism may be common traits for INFJs, but that doesn't mean those traits are part of what defines INFJs. There are plenty of INFJs who are not altruistic and perfectionistic.
    There may be exceptions but exceptions don't break the rule... The type descriptions give the "average" and "most likely" traits of a "healthy" INFJ... So altruism and perfectionism (which must lie somewhere between enneagram 1 and 2) should have been much more abundant among INFJs...

    Check this to see that among online INFJs, only 8% are of the e1 and e2 types...and 50% of them are of the e4 (which clearly has nothing to do with Fe) type... There's clearly a spill over from e4 to the INFJ type...most likely INFPs or ENFJs...



    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    How exactly are you resolving the fact that you're mbti INFJ and socionics INFj (thought I saw at one point you said you were socionics INFj - maybe I'm wrong, in which case ignore this paragraph)? You wrote elsewhere that you thought mbti and socionics correlate. But, there's a totally different set of functions between mbti INFJ and socionics INFj. IF they correlate nicely, you're without a doubt mistyped in one of the systems. [I'm not saying *I* think they have to correlate, but if you think they do, then something is amiss in your own typings]
    Do this test to see for yourself... http://www.sociotype.com/tests/

    Regarding the whole enneagram thing, you keep harping on enneagram 1 being the pinnacle of Ni. And of course it would have to be, to fit your theory and for everything to make sense to you in your mind, since you're an INFJ e1. What if when I read the enneagram 1 description, I don't see that? If we're going by 'external type descriptions' and behaviors for enneagram, imo e1 is the pinnacle of Fe-dom or Te-dom, or at the very least, any of the 8 J types - that means ISTJ can easily be e1, as can ESTJ, and so on. Nothing to do with Ni, really. As others have pointed out, enneagram is about core motivations/fears... which transcend cognitive functions.

    Though, you don't seem to care to acknowledge that. Because, it doesn't fit your own theory.
    What does this Ni-Fe do basically? What does Fe-dom or Te-dom do basically? Consider the cases ENFJ and ENTJ for instance, what do they do and do what they do fit with enneagram 1? How?

    There's an 'overabundance' of 4's because: a)This is an online social forum, which attracts people who don't have as much going on in the real world; thus, more introverts, more intuitives, and since this is a psychological forum specifically, more misfits and people with psychological or interpersonal issues they're trying to deal with. 4's will often fall into a lot of these. It's no surprise there are lots of 4's, and 5's, and 6's..... and fewer 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's: who are out there in the 'real world' getting things done, and whose coping mechanisms aren't as much getting stuck in their head and prone to introspection/staying on a forum.
    I didn't know this was a psychological forum... Yeah you may right about e4s being more interested in self discovery...

    In the bolded part is there a jab at me?

  3. #193
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Do this test to see for yourself... http://www.sociotype.com/tests/
    No thanks; you're not even addressing my question/point to you, and are sidestepping to get me to take a test, which is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was about YOUR views of the systems and YOUR types.


    What does this Ni-Fe do basically? What does Fe-dom or Te-dom do basically? Consider the cases ENFJ and ENTJ for instance, what do they do and do what they do fit with enneagram 1? How?
    Enneagram 1 description highlights "They are teachers, crusaders, and advocates for change: always striving to improve things", "Ones are people of practical action—they wish to be useful in the best sense of the word. On some level of consciousness, they feel that they “have a mission” to fulfill in life, if only to try their best to reduce the disorder they see in their environment."

    Reducing disorder, practical action, directing/moving things externally towards their own internal vision. = Extroverted judging

    You missed my overall point, though, which was about my reading e1 descriptions, and apparently getting something different out of it than you. Also, you missed that I was also emphasizing that tying enneagram to cognitive functions is NOT what enneagram is about: So what I was doing was simply looking at it the way you are -- tying cog functions to superficial enneagram descriptions, I simply come to a different conclusion when playing that game -- but really this isn't what it's about, at all. It's about core fears/motivations, not cognitive functions=enneagram; others in this thread have been speaking to enneagram much better than I.

    In the bolded part is there a jab at me?
    If anything, it's a jab at e4's and e5's, tbh... anyone whose coping involves going inward / self absorption/getting stuck in that cycle. Contrast with 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's, who are pretty scarce on the forum, but I think it's precisely because they're motivated and driven in other ways, cope in different ways, often-times more externally, keeping busy, goals they've set for themselves, focusing attention on objects or other people, vs. inwardly. Trends, of course.
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  4. #194
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    No thanks; you're not even addressing my question/point to you, and are sidestepping to get me to take a test, which is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was about YOUR views of the systems and YOUR types.
    You would get your answer if you did the test...

  5. #195
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You would get your answer if you did the test...
    What is the question?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  6. #196
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I've failed to fit in in high school... I was a nerd and a wuss... Was also bullied...So I also tried to compensate feelings of self worth by acting all knowledgable (my strength) and arrogant... College was thankfully a much better and saner environment where intelligence was valued... A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...
    What I've been learning is that feeling that shame and hatred towards yourself, while better in some small way than turning it outward where it doesn't belong, accomplishes nothing. It doesn't make amends to the people you were making fun of, it only makes you feel so bad that you end up getting stuck in it. So, what does one do with all that shame and hatred? Can't direct it out, can't keep it in. At the moment, I have no definitive answer for you. I only recently realized it myself, that I was still reacting this way emotionally. I have found, in the past, that I am able to let go of a lot of the shame and embarrassment when I take appropriate action to try to make amends. So, don't just feel sorry, try to show that you are sorry. Apologizing is good, but sometimes more is required--using your example--like not making fun of people at their expense any more. Has that worked for you? Are you able to let go of the shame and self-hatred if you take appropriate action to make amends? Or does it still stick with you?

    That felt like the bottom of the pit and was the turning point for me I guess... I have been gradually climbing up the pit till today... Yeah I've made mistakes along the way... But I had to make them to learn better... I'll make more mistakes in future but I'll try to amend them if I can... That's part of life...
    This is a good attitude to have. Be vigilant, though, as it can also be used as an excuse or rationalization.

    I started saying no and being assertive more often around 27-28... I am still trying to get better at it and not feel anxious when people try to still violate them forcefully...
    I've had trouble with this, too. I've been working towards being able to calmly continue to say "no" for as long as it takes. I also try to make sure that I take responsibility for those times that I decide to say "yes". If I say yes when I really mean no, that is no one's fault but my own. No one coerced me, except for maybe my own feelings of "I should" or "I'm expected to". If I decide to say yes as a favor, or because it feeds into my own ideal of who I am, it is still my own decision and I don't feel used if what I did ends up not being appreciated. Does all of that make sense to you? Does it seem like a reasonable way to think about setting good boundaries?

    I am not looking for a magic wand... I am trying to emphasize that most people DO NOT care this much about others and DO NOT self-criticize this much...I am seeing that daily...and also in this forum as well... So coming onto INFJs on grounds that they SHOULD care about others and berate themselves more is WRONG... So any kind of description regarding INFJs should be given in "complete context..."

    In the horse example, if you simply focus on that horse decreasing its load, you can easily condemn it... But if you bring into the picture that other horses do not even carry that much load to begin with, then the whole scenario changes...
    I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was basing my response on what I have looked for in the past, which is a set of unchanging rules for dealing with the feelings or setting up boundaries (magic). Although it's possible to make up a strict set of rules, I've found that it doesn't work very well. Life requires the capacity to bend when necessary, and strict rules, by definition, don't bend.

    Regarding the bolded: I used to think that way, but I can't any more. I could only see the load I was carrying, and I imagined that others weren't carrying the same load, because the load you're talking about is an inner load. It's not something you can readily see. And, sometimes, even when I could 'see' that someone was carrying the same, or even a heavier, load, I still couldn't see past the load I was carrying. I still have times when I can't look past the load I'm carrying, and part of my problem is that I can be very picky about asking for help and accepting help that doesn't match what I think I need.

    Self-criticism can come out in different ways, so saying that other types don't self-criticize as much as INFJs is not a fact. They might not self-criticize in the same way that we do, but, then again, our way of self-criticizing seems rather out-of-proportion and unhealthy to me now.

    I'm afraid that what I've written here will just be more confusing to you instead of being helpful. I'm trying to lighten your load, but it might appear to you that I'm actually adding to it instead. A good first step might be to simply look to see if other people are actually carrying less than you. Stop and notice those things. Look closely at what load you're actually carrying. Is it mostly emotions? What can you do to lighten your own load?

    So I feel I've been on the right track... I can't see what I am doing wrong... This also has to work both ways... If I am trying to be self-critical and self-aware whereas others are not even trying, what's the point?
    I think you're on the right track, too. However, the point is that improving yourself has nothing to do with other people and everything to do with you. There is no real reason that it has to work both ways.

    My question in this circumstance has been a little different than yours: How do I practice self-awareness in a society that doesn't generally value, encourage, or understand it? Even if I never find an answer to this question, I still feel it's worth it to me to continue trying to be self-aware.
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  7. #197
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    What I've been learning is that feeling that shame and hatred towards yourself, while better in some small way than turning it outward where it doesn't belong, accomplishes nothing. It doesn't make amends to the people you were making fun of, it only makes you feel so bad that you end up getting stuck in it. So, what does one do with all that shame and hatred? Can't direct it out, can't keep it in. At the moment, I have no definitive answer for you. I only recently realized it myself, that I was still reacting this way emotionally. I have found, in the past, that I am able to let go of a lot of the shame and embarrassment when I take appropriate action to try to make amends. So, don't just feel sorry, try to show that you are sorry. Apologizing is good, but sometimes more is required--using your example--like not making fun of people at their expense any more. Has that worked for you? Are you able to let go of the shame and self-hatred if you take appropriate action to make amends? Or does it still stick with you?
    Yeah certainly... though it appears I disarmed myself in the process... There's still left-over shame but it's more about myself than others... I try very hard not to offend people and when I do I try to make amends and apologize... When I offend people I mostly feel guilt I guess... The shame is more about myself not being able to stand up for my own rights more...being fearful and weak... It's an ongoing process though...

    This is a good attitude to have. Be vigilant, though, as it can also be used as an excuse or rationalization.
    It's OK to cut oneself some slack sometimes... It helps to develop Ne...

    I've had trouble with this, too. I've been working towards being able to calmly continue to say "no" for as long as it takes. I also try to make sure that I take responsibility for those times that I decide to say "yes". If I say yes when I really mean no, that is no one's fault but my own. No one coerced me, except for maybe my own feelings of "I should" or "I'm expected to". If I decide to say yes as a favor, or because it feeds into my own ideal of who I am, it is still my own decision and I don't feel used if what I did ends up not being appreciated. Does all of that make sense to you? Does it seem like a reasonable way to think about setting good boundaries?
    If someone asks you a favor and you agree to it, then that's your decision and it's good to stick with it... If you did best and the other party doesn't appreciate at least your effort, then it would be good to not grant them favors anymore... There are also people who are quite adept at using other people's triggers to make them do favors... If you detect such a pattern (if it becomes too frequent or too one-sided), it would be OK to deny the favor too... some people have no qualms about taking advantage of others...

    I misunderstood what you were looking for. I was basing my response on what I have looked for in the past, which is a set of unchanging rules for dealing with the feelings or setting up boundaries (magic). Although it's possible to make up a strict set of rules, I've found that it doesn't work very well. Life requires the capacity to bend when necessary, and strict rules, by definition, don't bend.
    It's just knowing and honoring one's own preferences and not rewarding\enabling others who violate them...even after you tell them not to...

    Regarding the bolded: I used to think that way, but I can't any more. I could only see the load I was carrying, and I imagined that others weren't carrying the same load, because the load you're talking about is an inner load. It's not something you can readily see. And, sometimes, even when I could 'see' that someone was carrying the same, or even a heavier, load, I still couldn't see past the load I was carrying. I still have times when I can't look past the load I'm carrying, and part of my problem is that I can be very picky about asking for help and accepting help that doesn't match what I think I need.

    Self-criticism can come out in different ways, so saying that other types don't self-criticize as much as INFJs is not a fact. They might not self-criticize in the same way that we do, but, then again, our way of self-criticizing seems rather out-of-proportion and unhealthy to me now.
    Well there are people around me who have no qualms about calling others paranoid, delusional or the sort and threaten to beat them up and still don't feel guilty enough to apologize or make amends... or other people who make fun of others based on intelligence or skill or lack thereof and don't feel guilty to make amends... So I can see that their conscience doesn't carry as much burden as mine does...

    I'm afraid that what I've written here will just be more confusing to you instead of being helpful. I'm trying to lighten your load, but it might appear to you that I'm actually adding to it instead. A good first step might be to simply look to see if other people are actually carrying less than you. Stop and notice those things. Look closely at what load you're actually carrying. Is it mostly emotions? What can you do to lighten your own load?
    I see around me that people offload their negative emotions onto others quite easily like yelling, belittling, cussing, intimidating etc...and they don't feel remorse for that... It seems to have become the norm... The guys superior slanders him, and then the latter offloads that negative feeling to whomever he perceives to be weak around him like his subordinate or his wife or his children or a dog even... It's considered normal in my country... Similar things are also happening in this forum... So as far as my country and this forum is concerned, the average feeling of remorse and conscience seems to be below my that of my own...

    As for decreasing the load, honoring my own preferences and standing up for them...

    I think you're on the right track, too. However, the point is that improving yourself has nothing to do with other people and everything to do with you.

    My question in this circumstance has been a little different than yours: How do I practice self-awareness in a society that doesn't generally value, encourage, or understand it?
    Yeah there are parts of me that I am still ashamed of, which makes me vulnerable to external feedback by others... In time, I hope I'll overcome them so that my own emotional integrity and sanity will be less dependent on how other people treat me but how I really feel about myself...hopefully...

  8. #198
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What does this Ni-Fe do basically?

    The type descriptions give the "average" and "most likely" traits of a "healthy" INFJ... So altruism and perfectionism (which must lie somewhere between enneagram 1 and 2) should have been much more abundant among INFJs...
    I like this brief explanation of INFJs e4s, and I've found it to be true from my limited experience with them: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...l=1#post224889

    From what I understand:
    Ni creates "maps" of reality made of conceptual impressions. Fe makes value judgments about what is perceived and also feels the urge to establish connections with others. As Ni-doms, INFJs are often much pickier than Fe-doms about who they choose to connect with, and they also tend to express Fe in a more idiosyncratic way than an Fe-dom because it's "filtered" through Ni. Some INFJs have the classic e2-ish Fe though, while others (like some e4s) have a "pricklier" Fe. I agree that most INFJs have an altruistic streak, but its prominence varies depending on how and how much Fe is used.
    If I'm reading you right, the point of your question was to make me realize that the way Ni+Fe works results in certain traits like perfectionism and altruism. I agree that this function combination does usually lead to these traits (in varying degrees), but that doesn't mean that those are the core issues of most INFJs. e4s can be very perfectionistic too; it's just not the core issue for them like it is for an e1. Also, e4s aren't all about ego; I've met many who have a strong nurturing/altruistic streak as well. People can have traits that seem to contradict each other. But yes, I do think that INFJs often have an e1 "flavor" because of their Je, even when it isn't their core type.

    Check this to see that among online INFJs, only 8% are of the e1 and e2 types...and 50% of them are of the e4 (which clearly has nothing to do with Fe) type... There's clearly a spill over from e4 to the INFJ type...most likely INFPs or ENFJs...
    You say e4 has nothing to do with Fe, but you think ENFJs (FeNi) are more likely to be e4s than INFJs (NiFe)?

  9. #199
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    From what I understand:

    Ni creates "maps" of reality made of conceptual impressions. Fe makes value judgments about what is perceived and also feels the urge to establish connections with others. As Ni-doms, INFJs are often much pickier than Fe-doms about who they choose to connect with, and they also tend to express Fe in a more idiosyncratic way than an Fe-dom because it's "filtered" through Ni. Some INFJs have the classic e2-ish Fe though, while others (like some e4s) have a "pricklier" Fe. I agree that most INFJs have an altruistic streak, but its prominence varies depending on how and how much Fe is used.
    Yeah something like that... Ni is collecting patterns and impression of the Fe layer of information in the external world, thereby creating a mini Fe-model of the external world... Fe layer is about human behaviour both at individual and social level...

    So Ni-Fe ends up internalizing a "model" of the Fe-layer inside the individual... That model is the "superego"... The model functions as an internal guiding force for the individual...

    So from my understanding, Ni-Fe means a superego dominant mechanism, an over-developed conscience which results in codependent behaviour...

    If I'm reading you right, the point of your question was to make me realize that the way Ni+Fe works results in certain traits like perfectionism and altruism. I agree that this function combination does usually lead to these traits (in varying degrees), but that doesn't mean that those are the core issues of most INFJs. e4s can be very perfectionistic too; it's just not the core issue for them like it is for an e1. Also, e4s aren't all about ego; I've met many who have a strong nurturing/altruistic streak as well. People can have traits that seem to contradict each other. But yes, I do think that INFJs often have an e1 "flavor" because of their Je, even when it isn't their core type.

    You say e4 has nothing to do with Fe, but you think ENFJs (FeNi) are more likely to be e4s than INFJs (NiFe)?
    e4 descriptions are all about the self and ego... perfectionism and altruism are core traits in INFJ descriptions...

    I think ENFJs and INFPs share a crossover between enneagrams 3 and 4... Some enneagram 4s may be mistyped 3s as well, hence ENFJs...

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    to be clear, @yeghor, according to you - the super ego, a.k.a. a main element within freud's treatise about how the emotional frameworks operate in all human beings - was actually based on a cognitive function match that persists somewhere between 1 to 3% of the human population...

    how exactly would he have done that mistake? did they kill all the non-INFJs in Vienna?

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