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  1. #181
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    @Eilonwy you are focusing on all the wrong things...
    At first this made me chuckle, but when I woke up just a bit ago, I realized you are right. I have been focusing on the wrong things with you.

    I am at my wits end... This is what I'll say to you.... I am an INFJ and I have NO idea what you are talking about... I cannot even relate to you...
    I'm sorry about this--that I confuse you to this degree. I'm not yet sure what I can say that will help, but I'll keep trying. Okay?

    Please do tell me, what were you like in your 20s and 30s?

    How did you spend your free time?

    What activities did you do?

    What caused you the most distress?

    Did you continously blame yourself for your failures and not being good enough?
    I'm not going to take these questions so literally. Instead, I'm going to tell you this.

    My whole life, I've felt shame and embarrassment whenever I've become aware that I've made a mistake. For a while, I tried acting arrogant and pushing all of that feeling out onto the people around me, but I ended up seeing what I had done and that was worse than dealing with the initial feelings. Even now, I'll feel sick to my stomach when I think about the mistakes I've made. I feel that I'll be judged harshly, that no one will like me. I walk on eggshells around myself, because I don't want to feel those feelings. I'm afraid they'll overwhelm me, so I go into analytical mode.

    My whole life, I've had trouble setting good boundaries with other people. Again, I've tried hard tactics--setting such unrealistic and unfair boundaries that I felt worse for doing so. So, then I'd swing the other way and have almost no boundaries, which worked as far as how I felt, because I then could feel that I wasn't hurting other people's feelings by telling them "no", but it left me feeling used and angry. But I couldn't start blaming other people for me being afraid to tell them "no", so I became hyper-responsible while I learned to say "no". But then it seemed that people just wouldn't respect it when I told them "no". Having to tell them "no" over and over again felt like they weren't listening to me, and I would get angry. Why couldn't they hear me the first time and respect that? (Hint: I've found out that it's still unrealistic, because there are things I have to be told "no" over and over about as well.)

    So, yeghor, if you're looking for some magic that will stop the feelings of shame and embarrassment, or that will help you in setting good boundaries, there is none. You already have the answer. You keep going. You keep trying. In spite of what you're feeling, you keep making the mistakes and learn to deal with the feelings. You figure out what a reasonable boundary is and you set it, even though it's uncomfortable to do so. You listen and you revise. You live and learn. You reach out to people and find that they aren't always as judgmental and scary as you imagined they were. It's not easy, and those uncomfortable feelings don't go away.

    So, it may look to you like I've been confessing my sins so that I can be at peace, but that's not exactly what's happening. I've been looking at my blind spots and thought patterns, examining them and how they might contribute to the mistakes I might make. I've been answering other people's questions about what thought patterns might be at play in the problems they've experienced with INFJs. It hasn't really brought me peace--I still feel all of those feelings of embarrassment and shame. What it has brought me is strength and answers and tools to work with. But, I'm still learning, so maybe some measure of peace will come from this, too.

    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #182
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    @yeghor, listen to yourself:
    according to you - you are unable to separate between shame & guilt
    according to you - you grow up with a sense of shame/guilt since your youth
    according to you - that stemmed out of of your relationship with your parents
    according to you - it angers you when anyone expects you to feel guilt/shame for anything as an adult.
    according to you - it is wrong & cruel of anyone to make any statement which conflicts with your ego / sense of self.


    does that description reminds you of anything? anything at all?


    see, that's the funny thing about projection - it does happen, but it is not the magical "i am rubber and you are glue everything you say rubs off me and sticks to you" for adults. when projection happens you can actually demonstrate that there are all the symptoms of neurosis followed by a denial of the neurosis and a complete inability to rationally backup the assumed perceptions about others suffering from that very same neurosis.



    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    This^ is exactly what you fail to understand and choose to remain ignorant of @Mane ...
    how on earth would i have being able to address & debunk that exact belief just now if i was ignorant about you having that belief? seriously - even if you could find a flaw in my argument - how would the act of addressing it have technically being possible?


    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I've always assumed you were an ENFP if you recall by the way...

    sure - if i lived in the universe where objective reality is determined by how it complies with the ego of one mister yeghor, & and typology is a specially designed tool made by god (presumably yeghor himself) in order to reinforce that affect by defining Fi vs. Ti is defined as subjective vs. objective reality, i would have to be an ENFP. the funny thing about that universe - it has zero inhabitants, which is about the average population for places that don't exist.

  3. #183
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ...My whole life, I've felt shame and embarrassment whenever I've become aware that I've made a mistake. For a while, I tried acting arrogant and pushing all of that feeling out onto the people around me, but I ended up seeing what I had done and that was worse than dealing with the initial feelings. Even now, I'll feel sick to my stomach when I think about the mistakes I've made. I feel that I'll be judged harshly, that no one will like me. I walk on eggshells around myself, because I don't want to feel those feelings. I'm afraid they'll overwhelm me, so I go into analytical mode.
    I've failed to fit in in high school... I was a nerd and a wuss... Was also bullied...So I also tried to compensate feelings of self worth by acting all knowledgable (my strength) and arrogant... College was thankfully a much better and saner environment where intelligence was valued... A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...

    That felt like the bottom of the pit and was the turning point for me I guess... I have been gradually climbing up the pit till today... Yeah I've made mistakes along the way... But I had to make them to learn better... I'll make more mistakes in future but I'll try to amend them if I can... That's part of life...

    My whole life, I've had trouble setting good boundaries with other people. Again, I've tried hard tactics--setting such unrealistic and unfair boundaries that I felt worse for doing so. So, then I'd swing the other way and have almost no boundaries, which worked as far as how I felt, because I then could feel that I wasn't hurting other people's feelings by telling them "no", but it left me feeling used and angry. But I couldn't start blaming other people for me being afraid to tell them "no", so I became hyper-responsible while I learned to say "no". But then it seemed that people just wouldn't respect it when I told them "no". Having to tell them "no" over and over again felt like they weren't listening to me, and I would get angry. Why couldn't they hear me the first time and respect that? (Hint: I've found out that it's still unrealistic, because there are things I have to be told "no" over and over about as well.)
    I started saying no and being assertive more often around 27-28... I am still trying to get better at it and not feel anxious when people try to still violate them forcefully...

    So, yeghor, if you're looking for some magic that will stop the feelings of shame and embarrassment, or that will help you in setting good boundaries, there is none. You already have the answer. You keep going. You keep trying. In spite of what you're feeling, you keep making the mistakes and learn to deal with the feelings. You figure out what a reasonable boundary is and you set it, even though it's uncomfortable to do so. You listen and you revise. You live and learn. You reach out to people and find that they aren't always as judgmental and scary as you imagined they were. It's not easy, and those uncomfortable feelings don't go away.
    I am not looking for a magic wand... I am trying to emphasize that most people DO NOT care this much about others and DO NOT self-criticize this much...I am seeing that daily...and also in this forum as well... So coming onto INFJs on grounds that they SHOULD care about others and berate themselves more is WRONG... So any kind of description regarding INFJs should be given in "complete context..."

    In the horse example, if you simply focus on that horse decreasing its load, you can easily condemn it... But if you bring into the picture that other horses do not even carry that much load to begin with, then the whole scenario changes...

    So, it may look to you like I've been confessing my sins so that I can be at peace, but that's not exactly what's happening. I've been looking at my blind spots and thought patterns, examining them and how they might contribute to the mistakes I might make. I've been answering other people's questions about what thought patterns might be at play in the problems they've experienced with INFJs. It hasn't really brought me peace--I still feel all of those feelings of embarrassment and shame. What it has brought me is strength and answers and tools to work with. But, I'm still learning, so maybe some measure of peace will come from this, too.

    So I feel I've been on the right track... I can't see what I am doing wrong... This also has to work both ways... If I am trying to be self-critical and self-aware whereas others are not even trying, what's the point?

  4. #184
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    A friend that I cared about in college told me that I was making fun of people at their expense...I contemplated on what he said and saw that he was right...and I hated myself for that... I was 20 y.o. I guess at that time... Then I gradually became more introverted and directed the shame and hate that I used to project outwards inwards...
    You should do this too... It hurts at first but gets better in time...

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You should do this too... It hurts at first but gets better in time...
    "you are projecting! no you! no you are! no you! " <- dumbest muppet show ever.

  6. #186
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    "you are projecting! no you! no you are! no you! " <- dumbest muppet show ever.
    And yet, right there is the crux of the matter, part of the problem, where things seems to get stuck. I've been thinking about what to do about it for a while, and have no answers yet. Working on it.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #187
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Again, this is still an identity problem and 4s are one of the identity triad.
    OK but it how come something that they accepted at childhood be their basic fear? Isn't it like saying INFJs basic fear is being fat and they accept that they should be fat at childhood... How can they embrace what they fear at childhood? Does that make sense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    No, you are the one trying to put INFJs in a narrow little box, irrespective of how well they actually fit into it.

    You can keep throwing all these INFJ traits at me, but I can't leap to the sorts of conclusions you're making. One trait does not necessarily preclude the presence of another - simple as that. I need an argument for why they don't go together, not a longer lists of traits.

    I also need you to stop bring yourself from this debate; all it seems to result in is flawed reasoning. This is basically what you've been saying:

    Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
    Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
    Conclusion - The INFJ type does not correlate with type 4

    There are so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin. I would rather not go down that very shaky path. However, if you wish to continue debating the nature of INFJs and 4s in a more objective sense, I will gladly do so.
    Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
    Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
    Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
    Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
    Premise 5 - Enneagram 4 description fits with cognitive function Fi and has "nothing" to do with Fe nor Ni
    Premise 6 - INFJ has Ni-Fe
    Conclusion - Therefore INFJ type could not be of the enneagram type 4 as a main type

    It's interesting that you are choosing to focus on the first 2 though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    In your opinion...

    I have received no argument or evidence from you to back up this statement. In fact, as far as I know, MBTI type is innate and not a product of environment. Enneagram, on the other hand, has a lot to do with environment.
    Ok... INFJ = Ni-Fe so Ni in charge and Fe subservient to Ni... What does Ni mainly do and how may Fe be helping Ni? What is it that they do basicly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Sorry, I haven't watched the video.

    I don't get it. Why do you think "codependence" is not congruous with 4 drives?
    Because enneagram 4 is focused on the self, if you check the descriptions, not on others... Codependent are focused more on others' needs than their own...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Now you're just taking the piss. You don't actually believe that do you?
    It's true... It's Fi's doing... Trying to build up a unique identity... I am doing it nowadays as well...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    They would simply be INFJ 4s.
    Which I disagree with...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Not everyone is the same. INFJs aren't robots manufactured on an assembly line. Idiosyncrasies will always exists in addition to the general MBTI attributes, resulting in a variety of different outcomes.
    Yes, but similar drives should concentrate around similar types...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's not what I said. I was saying that there is nothing about Ni (or Fe for that matter) that inherently precludes it from existing in combination with the 4 type.
    Perhaps for "Fe" when 4 is not the main type but the second or third... In the primary position it is impossible...As for Ni, 4 has nothing to do with Ni...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's the whole problem. Stop doing that. It's circular reasoning.
    Goddammit, isn't external type descriptions valid for reasoning...? Using myself as benchmark makes me notice inconsistencies about this whole issue and those description on the net seem to reinforce my suspicions...

    There's also evidence that there's an overabundance of 4s on this forum according the official statistics, half of whom turn out to be INFJs and the other half IxFPs... How's that even possible?

    There's also the issue of you liking enneagram 3s as your polar opposites... which means enneagram 3s may be which MBTI type?

    There may be enneagram 3s mistyped as 4s and at the same time mistyped as INFJs in MBTI causing this overabundance...

    Anyway, I think 4s and 3s should settle this between each other... I personally think that the true INFJ population of this forum is actually %10-20 of what it appears to be...

  8. #188
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Goddammit, isn't external type descriptions valid for reasoning...? Using myself as benchmark makes me notice inconsistencies about this whole issue and those description on the net seem to reinforce my suspicions...
    How exactly are you resolving the fact that you're mbti INFJ and socionics INFj (thought I saw at one point you said you were socionics INFj - maybe I'm wrong, in which case ignore this paragraph)? You wrote elsewhere that you thought mbti and socionics correlate. But, there's a totally different set of functions between mbti INFJ and socionics INFj. IF they correlate nicely, you're without a doubt mistyped in one of the systems. [I'm not saying *I* think they have to correlate, but if you think they do, then something is amiss in your own typings]

    Regarding the whole enneagram thing, you keep harping on enneagram 1 being the pinnacle of Ni. And of course it would have to be, to fit your theory and for everything to make sense to you in your mind, since you're an INFJ e1. What if when I read the enneagram 1 description, I don't see that? If we're going by 'external type descriptions' and behaviors for enneagram, imo e1 is the pinnacle of Fe-dom or Te-dom, or at the very least, any of the 8 J types - that means ISTJ can easily be e1, as can ESTJ, and so on. Nothing to do with Ni, really. As others have pointed out, enneagram is about core motivations/fears... which transcend cognitive functions.

    Though, you don't seem to care to acknowledge that. Because, it doesn't fit your own theory.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor
    There's also evidence that there's an overabundance of 4s on this forum according the official statistics, half of whom turn out to be INFJs and the other half IxFPs... How's that even possible?
    There's an 'overabundance' of 4's because: a)This is an online social forum, which attracts people who don't have as much going on in the real world; thus, more introverts, more intuitives, and since this is a psychological forum specifically, more misfits and people with psychological or interpersonal issues they're trying to deal with. 4's will often fall into a lot of these. It's no surprise there are lots of 4's, and 5's, and 6's..... and fewer 1's, 2's, 3's, 8's: who are out there in the 'real world' getting things done, and whose coping mechanisms aren't as much getting stuck in their head and prone to introspection/staying on a forum.
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  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    And yet, right there is the crux of the matter, part of the problem, where things seems to get stuck. I've been thinking about what to do about it for a while, and have no answers yet. Working on it.
    in general or here? in general, you can just try to explain:
    see, that's the funny thing about projection - it does happen, but it is not the magical "i am rubber and you are glue everything you say rubs off me and sticks to you" for adults. when projection happens you can actually demonstrate that there are all the symptoms of neurosis followed by a denial of the neurosis and a complete inability to rationally backup the assumed perceptions about others suffering from that very same neurosis.
    i find that this marks the difference between claiming projection to deflect arguments and recognizing a neurosis being projected.

    as for those who take it to the far extreme in which every claim made on anyone is projection, ask them this: is every news reporters who reported on a crime must be a rapist or murderer for reporting that others are? how about anyone who gave a testimony in court? anything you see another doing? and how is it exactly that we are able to understand incredibly complicated levels of physics biology economical dynamic and yet somehow we loose any ability to reach a rational conclusion the moment the subject of our analysis is a person? our entire analytically capacity disappears the moment we're examining a human?

    evidently this is not going to go through to everyone - you need the fundamental capacity to shift perspectives and ask yourself if the method in which you've used to defend your argument can also be used to disprove it - but in the vast majority of cases people are able to reason through it:
    that projection needs to be taken with a grain of salt, needs to be backed up just like any other claim, not be taken for granted and assume as the default.

  10. #190
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
    Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
    Premise 3 - INFJs are defined as altruistic and perfectionists
    Premise 4 - Enneagram 4 description is not about perfectionism and altruism
    Premise 5 - Enneagram 4 description fits with cognitive function Fi and has "nothing" to do with Fe nor Ni
    Premise 6 - INFJ has Ni-Fe
    Conclusion - Therefore INFJ type could not be of the enneagram type 4 as a main type
    Hmm, some faulty logic and some questionable premises.

    Enneagram and MBTI approach the concept of the psyche, the mental wiring if you will, from two different perspectives. MBTI is more concerned with the conscious, known part of the psyche and the enneagram from the unconscious, driven forces from the depth of the psyche. MBTI approaches discussion from the positive perspective, that all combinations of the E/I, T/F, N/S and J/P dichotomies are equally acceptable and valid. Enneagram approaches from the negative angles, the unseen, the things that drive us from a spectrum of unhealthiness to healthiness, each damaging to varying degrees.

    There is a contrast that you are missing. If it helps, think of it as the difference between how we "think" (MBTI) vs how we "feel" (enneagram). The way we "think" does not have to match the way we "feel". Yes, there are some loose patterns and associations, tendencies if you will, between the two systems, but they do not pair together well because they are dealing with two different starting points and two different realms. Think of enneagram as the wine that colors the water glass. An enneagram 4 INFJ has a very different flavour than an e1. But think of it like that if you can, something that takes the way you "think" and colors it with the emotional tendency to "feel" from different perspectives.

    MBTI presents a paradigm of altruism for INFJ that in reality does not exist for some INFJs. Yet they are, seemingly paradoxically, still INFJ. It is the descriptively rose-colored nature of MBTI that fails us, here.

    eta: but you know what I appreciate yeghor? Is that you will set your premises out there for examination. Thanks for being open like that.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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