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  1. #171
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    3s - I know they often get bagged a bit on the internet but a healthy, well-rounded 3 is truly delightful to be around. I think being a So-first means I admire their charm, gregariousness, adaptability and confident competency. I think perhaps this type draws me the most romantically, because they're so good at things I'm terrible at.
    Sorry I quoted this here but what does that suggest about enneagram type 3?

  2. #172
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...
    Some might, some might not. Not type dependent.


    No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...
    actually, it's you that doesn't understand what INFJ (really, just typology in general is). Take a look around you and look how many people keep correcting you. That says something. Though, I do agree that descriptions of INFJ's do sound very lofty and and in some ways unrealistic. Co-dependency can be an issue for some INFJ's, but it's certaintly not required nor limited to them.


    INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...
    Nope. No evidence to support this.


    What Eilonwy perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...
    I haven't watched the afformentioned video (nor do I care to) and thus won't comment on that.

    The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...
    No. Wrong. Again. Enneagram and MBTI do not require linkage. The evidence is completely contrary to what you're saying. Stop claming this, it's completely and utterly wrong.


    I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...
    WOW. That's completely illogical. This is no different than claiming that people who have large sleave tatoos have anger issues. No evidence to support this, and it's extremely judgemental and unfair.


    What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?
    Then it is what it is.


    Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...
    Bold claim, no evidence other then self refrence, which can not be used as a universal point.


    I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4... I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...
    This is what you THINK, this is NOT what it ACTUALLY is.


    Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...
    You need to stop doing the former so much. You WAY over use it, way way way too much. I have yet to see you use ANY of the latter. Everything you suggest is either just a unsupported thought, or a self reference.


    The bottom line is that enneagram 4 clearly defines Fi-dom or aux in MBTI... And that makes it impossible for a Fe-dom or aux to be an enneagram 4 main type... They may have 4 in their second or third type in their tritype but not as the primary one...
    NO. No times 1000x. This is not true, you can't support this. The evidence (other people having these typing combinations) completely proves your claim wrong. For the love of god, how are you this stubborn? You've been told by easily a dozen people in just a week these kinds of statements are wrong, and then just completely ignore it. WHY? Why do you not listen to reason?
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  3. #173
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    ...
    You talk way too certain for someone who cannot ascertain his own type to begin with (are you settled on ISTJ now?)...

    Try googling INFJ and copendency...

    I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of it...

    Propose alternative explanations and I'll take them seriously...

    How would you know what INFJ is?

    How do you imagine an INFJ to be and to act?

    What do Ni-Fe-Ti-Se functions do for the INFJ?

    How do they enable INFJ to display the traits that are attributed to INFJ?

  4. #174
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You talk way too certain for someone who cannot ascertain his own type to begin with (are you settled on ISTJ now?)...
    See my signature (my type hasn't changed). Comment is out of place, and belongs here.

    Try googling INFJ and copendency...
    I don't care enough to TBH. What I can say though, is that co-dependency is possible for any type.

    I think you are disagreeing just for the sake of it...
    Well, you'd be wrong on this too.

    Propose alternative explanations and I'll take them seriously...
    That's fine, but it doesn't make them right.

    How would you know what INFJ is?
    Because I have been studying typology since I was 14, and I used to run the INFJ forums back in 2010/2011.

    How do you imagine an INFJ to be and to act?

    What do Ni-Fe-Ti-Se functions do for the INFJ?

    How do they enable INFJ to display the traits that are attributed to INFJ?
    I'm not going to write this out and explain it. It would take WAY too long, and no offence but your ability to learn this sort of stuff and actually accept it is really low, that I feel like I'd be wasting my time. Someone else can explain this stuff it if they want to, but it's not going to be me.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  5. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
    when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".


    lets break this down:


    when you claim: statement X
    you express: that you believe statement X is true.
    and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.


    meaning...
    when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
    you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
    which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.


    on the other hand:
    if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
    you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
    and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
    but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):


    then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
    you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.
    No it means, I was left ignorant of some hard facts of life while being brought up by my parents, and I had to learn them like a child would but in my 30s... They inadvertantly programmed me in a way that suggested it was OK to relinquish self preferences and rights for the sake of others...

    it's certainly possible, i have no doubt you would have had trouble being who you are if it wasn't for your parent's upbringing and DNA...
    (and like wise them for their parents and their parents and their parents and all the way down to one caveman who accidently fall on another)
    but no - not only does you having someone to blame for it not contradict the actual meaning of what "it" is, it further illustrates it:
    what you are demonstrating is the tendency for rejecting responsibility (in this case who you are), which is the opposite of the tendency to take it.
    (especially if done in your 30s).

    that is the cop-out that @Eilonwy was talking about which she can now examine in her own past. as alien as the notion that it's there might seem to you - not to mention being able to take responsibility for it on your own anytime in the future. that's the thing about maturity - unless you fail at growth - then your future self is probably going to look back on your current self as quite immature.

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Your tritype suggests to me by the way that you are Ne-Fi-Se... ENFP?
    oh that's not all, i am also the only male 7-4-8 combination here (as far as i noticed), or for that matter the only male 7-4-x combination...
    ...so not only does it suggest i am the wrong MBTI type, it suggests i am the wrong gender!

    yea probably not, and likewise for others: the main reason you see common patterns between MBTI and the enneagram is that every description in the enneagram was written based on people the respective authors have interacted with, people who - surprise - also have have MBTI types, and the more frequent an MBTI-enneagram combination is, the more likely it was to inspire elements within the enneagram description (which in turn increases the likelihood of people of that MBTI-type typing as that e-type). 7s often described as Se dom, 8s as Te dom, 9s and 2s as Fe dom, 1s and 4s as Fi dom, 5s as Ti dom, 6s as Si dom. what this has a basis in is not causation or even full correlation, but frequency.

    while we're at it, here's another bit of reasoning you'll likely have a difficulty following:
    1. you have repeatedly made the claim that it's wrong for others to misrepresent their typology in discussions about the type you think they are mistyped as.
    2. so far had to retype almost every person you had any confrontation with and even many that you didn't, essentially expressing that you think most of anyone's understanding of the functions is wrong, and as an added bonus you've even expressed thinking that Jung's understanding of the functions is wrong... does it strike you as odd that in order for your understanding of MBTI to be true, almost everyone else's - including the people who invented and developed it over the years - has to be wrong?

    now, you can go to another country and tell everyone that their word for bread is the word for cancer & argue with every bakery and hospital that they are lying about their menu and sending the wrong messages in the cafeteria and that they aren't communicating correctly...
    ...or you can actually think and question whether the the goal of communication is to merely support your frame of reference in spite of the agree'd meaning of words, or - just maybe - to deliver understandings between people within a society by utilizing what people within that society interpret the meaning of the words to be. in which case, the one doing the miscommunication just.. might not be everyone else, but you.

  6. #176
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    as alien as the notion that it's there might seem to you - not to mention being able to take responsibility for it on your own anytime in the future.
    I don't think you'll ever be satisfied even if I catch 2 birds with one stone on one foot... Reminds me of something from my childhood...

    You gotta display and apply the same level of self-awareness you so demandingly expect from others...

    I've always assumed you were an ENFP if you recall by the way...

    Consider it this way...

    There are 10 horses that carry more or less the same load daily except for 1 that thinks that it is supposed to carry twice the weight or others will hate it... Time passes and that 1 notices that carrying twice the load that of other horses doesn't benefit it in any way but rather hurts it... So it decides that it should start carrying gradually less weight until it is more or less the same with other horses...

    There's also this 1 other horse that is ever on the lookout to offload his load to other horses...because it hurts its back... and so far the other one was willing to carry it for the latter.. but not anymore... What will it do? Who will carry that load for it? Its back hurts so bad... The other horse used to carry twice the load with ease... It's certainly being a spoilsport for suddenly refusing to do it... it's rejecting its responsibility, its duty...
    This^ is exactly what you fail to understand and choose to remain ignorant of @Mane ... You've become reliant on accusing others of your own shortcomings... its called projection... and you've been doing that on this forum since forever...

    This is clearly Ne-Fi at play... Your Ne is conjuring up excuses as to how it's always others at fault so that you can avoid feeling bad about yourself...

    We've discussed this already in the doorslam thread... I don't have any more patience to do that once more...

  7. #177
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.

    You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.
    That should be enough to say she is INFP.

  8. #178
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I think it was the 8 wing. That thing can sure enough get a gal into trouble sometimes, but it keeps life...interesting.
    I've been wondering about ninja Ti banter.

  9. #179
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calb View Post
    I've been wondering about ninja Ti banter.
    Go on....you've got me curious

    I've been known to mix it up in the hallowed halls of Ninjitsu.

    Since, we're letting Ti out of its cage....

    I've a theory related to long term practitioners of Martial Arts and the effect it has on cognitive development, but it only applies to ISTPs and INFJs. I don't know the implications for other types. (I would apologize for derailing the thread, but that train wrecked long ago, so now I'm just wading through the carnage, looking for treasures and pieces of junk I can recycle.)

    Bruce Lee is said by some to have been an ISTP, yet there was something VERY Ni about him. Serious commitment to a lifestyle of kung fu requires the development of intuition. But it also requires the development of Se and the utilization of Ti. In its most effective form, personal feelings have to be compartmentalized and dealt with "after" the fight. Decisions made in anger, fear, guilt, etc., stem from we call the emotional or monkey mind. We train ourselves to operate out of the wisdom or rational mind.

    So here's the theory:

    ISTPs who practice kung fu over the long haul move closer to INFJ likeness as their skill and age advances while INFJs who,practice over the long haul move closer to ISTP likeness as their skill and age advances.

    My training partner is definitely ISTP. He says we are the same, but I think that what he maybe really sees is that we are moving toward sameness. I am becoming more like him and he is becoming more like me. So, We are much alike, but he is so good with fixing things, while I am so good at creating things.

    It's only a theory, but explains my oddly developed Ti and Se.


    **our Grandmaster, I believe is INTJ. He says we are just alike. We do both come from Ni world and we are kindred, but we are not the same....I'm cuter.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #180
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...
    Again, this is still an identity problem and 4s are one of the identity triad.

    No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...
    No, you are the one trying to put INFJs in a narrow little box, irrespective of how well they actually fit into it.

    You can keep throwing all these INFJ traits at me, but I can't leap to the sorts of conclusions you're making. One trait does not necessarily preclude the presence of another - simple as that. I need an argument for why they don't go together, not a longer lists of traits.

    I also need you to stop bring yourself from this debate; all it seems to result in is flawed reasoning. This is basically what you've been saying:

    Premise 1 - I am a INFJ
    Premise 2 - I do not identify with type 4
    Conclusion - The INFJ type does not correlate with type 4

    There are so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin. I would rather not go down that very shaky path. However, if you wish to continue debating the nature of INFJs and 4s in a more objective sense, I will gladly do so.

    INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...
    In your opinion...

    I have received no argument or evidence from you to back up this statement. In fact, as far as I know, MBTI type is innate and not a product of environment. Enneagram, on the other hand, has a lot to do with environment.

    What @Eilonwy perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...
    Sorry, I haven't watched the video.

    I don't get it. Why do you think "codependence" is not congruous with 4 drives?

    The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...


    That is a huge leap to make and has no basis of support in the theory. You are being way too literal in your assessment of type correlations.


    I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...
    Now you're just taking the piss. You don't actually believe that do you?

    What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?
    They would simply be INFJ 4s.

    Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...
    Not everyone is the same. INFJs aren't robots manufactured on an assembly line. Idiosyncrasies will always exists in addition to the general MBTI attributes, resulting in a variety of different outcomes.

    I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4...
    That's not what I said. I was saying that there is nothing about Ni (or Fe for that matter) that inherently precludes it from existing in combination with the 4 type.

    I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...
    Sorry, I don't really go for the Freudian model of the psyche. I'm not saying it's wrong; I just don't personally find it useful.

    Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...
    That's the whole problem. Stop doing that. It's circular reasoning.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

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