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  1. #161
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    You likened her behaviour in the video to your bitchiness...,thereby also making her a bitch...
    I have a few minutes, so I'll answer this quickly.

    Yep, that's what's implied in my attitude and word choices. Except, what I was trying to get across is that I found her attitude immature. I related it to my attitudes when I was in high school and in my 20's. Also, you made the leap from "bitchy attitude" to "she's a bitch". I didn't say that she was a bitch, and it was only implied that her attitude was bitchy.

    Re-reading what I wrote, I notice I still don't stick to one point and tend to write my train of thought instead of any sort of logical answer. There is a point in that paragraph I wrote, but it's not very clear.

    Here, I'll try again. You asked "Do you relate to this for instance, or did you one time at least?". My answer is: I probably did relate to it in my late teens and 20s, but not now. Her attitudes and thinking seem immature to me.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #162
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Recognizing Fours

    Type Four exemplifies the desire to be ourselves, to be known for who we are, and to know the depths of our hearts. Of all the types, Fours are the most aware of their own emotional states. They notice when they feel upset, anxious, attracted to another person, or some other, more subtle combination of feelings. They pay attention to their different changing emotions and try to determine what their feelings are telling them about themselves, others, and their world. When Fours are more in balance, their exquisite attunement to their inner states enables them to discover deep truths about human nature, to bear compassionate witness to the suffering of others, or to be profoundly honest with themselves about their own motives. When they are less balanced, they can become lost in their feelings, preoccupied with emotional reactions, memories, and fantasies, both negative and positive.
    Fi

    Fours are also people who care a great deal about beauty and taste. Many Fours, for instance, are involved in artistic pursuits. Even if they are not artistically creative themselves, Fours seek out art, poetry, music, and other expressions that they find beautiful, because they feel these things reveal something true about themselves and about human nature. Fours often dress in ways that accentuate their own sense of personal style but also in ways that symbolically let others know how they are feeling (dressing entirely in black or in shades of violet, for instance). Similarly, they typically decorate their homes with objects and colors that evoke a strong sense of image and mood and reflect personal feelings and associations.
    Fi

    Above all, Fours want to distinguish themselves from others—they want to feel that their taste, their self-expression, and their emotional depth are unique. Thus, they tend to emphasize all of the ways in which they are unlike other people—especially their own family. They deeply want to know who they are and that who they are is special in some way. Being complimented or told that they are loved is nice, of course, but what Fours really want is for others to recognize and appreciate the pattern of qualities that is unique to them—that they are not generic.
    Fi...rejecting family=rejecting Fe...

    Because of their powerful need to see themselves as different from others, Fours often end up feeling alone and misunderstood. They become creative "outsiders," and they are proud of it. If they are working in a regular nine-to-five job, they will find ways to put their unique stamp on their work. This can run the gamut from finding their own way of presenting reports to having a recognizable design style to decorating their office in a way that reflects their tastes and feelings. They may run their own company (as long as there's a creative component to their work and it's emotionally satisfying), or they may be in a profession that makes use of their personal touch, such as a clothing designer, or counselor, or a therapist of some kind. Fours are often professional artists, writers, or teachers. Above all, Fours want their life to be a work of art. They want to achieve something beautiful despite the loneliness, suffering, and self-doubt they have so often felt.
    Fi=me me me..

    In brief, Fours want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw and protect their vulnerabilities, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, and to attract a "rescuer" who will understand them. Fours do not want to restrain or lose touch with their emotions, to feel ordinary, to have their individuality unrecognized, to have their taste questioned, to be required at social settings, to follow impersonal rules and procedures, to spend time with people they perceive as lacking taste or emotional depth.
    Snobbish?

    Their Hidden Side

    On the surface, Fours can seem to suffer from chronic self-doubt and extreme sensitivity to others' reactions to them. But part of the reason for this is that Fours often hold a secret, inner image of who they feel they could be. They have an idea of the sort of person they would like to become, the kind of person who would be fantastically talented, socially adept, and intensely desired. In short, Fours come to believe that if they were somehow different from who they are, they would be seen and loved. Unfortunately, they constantly compare themselves negatively to this idealized secret self—their 'fantasy self." This makes it very difficult for Fours to appreciate many of their genuine positive qualities because they are never as wonderful as the fantasy. Much of the growth for type Four involves letting go of this idealized secret self so that they can see and appreciate who they actually are.
    Which type does the bolded part remind you? What's its mirror image?

    Relationship Issues

    ... Their strong emotional reactions can make it difficult for them to sustain interpersonal connections. Fours tend to have the following issues in relationships:

    Becoming self-absorbed and uninterested in others' feelings or problems due to feeling overwhelmed by their own feelings.

    Idealizing potential partners, then feeling disappointed once they get to know them—often devaluing and rejecting them.

    Placing great expectations on the partner for nurturing and support. Dependency...

    Being moody and temperamental—making others "walk on eggshells." Emotional dysregulation...

    Withholding attention and affection to punish the other. Passive aggressiveness...

    Imagining that others have worse opinions of them than they do—being touchy and hypersensitive to slights.
    The Passion: Envy

    ...Fours then get in the habit of comparing themselves to others, concluding that they have somehow gotten "the short end of the stick." Fours feel that they have been singled out by fate for bad treatment, bad luck, unsatisfying relationships, bad parenting, and broken dreams. It comes as something of a shock to many Fours to discover that other people have suffered as much or even more than they have. This doesn't mean that Fours haven't suffered or that their painful pasts are inconsequential. But Fours need to see how they perpetuate their own suffering by continually focusing on old wounds rather than truly processing those hurts and letting go of them in a way that would allow them to heal.
    ^This...is crucial...

    At Their Best

    Healthy Fours strive to be true to themselves. They are emotionally honest and aren't afraid to reveal themselves to others, "warts and all." They combine self-awareness and introspection with great emotional strength and endurance. They bring a heightened sensitivity to their experiences and are able to share with others the subtleties of their inner world. This invites others to do the same. They are highly intuitive and creative and add a personal, human touch to whatever they are involved with. They treat others with gentleness, tact, and discretion. They can be wonderfully expressive with an ironic, witty view of life and themselves, often finding humor in their own foibles and contradictions. They bring a sense of beauty, refinement, and emotional richness into other people's lives.
    Thanks for the link...This definition much more clearly points to "Fi" types... Fi-Se and Fi-Ne not only scans the environment for ego nourishment but also for threats to the ego...but the mechanism prevents the individual from confronting and strenghtening his\her true self...

  3. #163
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    I have a few minutes, so I'll answer this quickly.

    Yep, that's what's implied in my attitude and word choices. Except, what I was trying to get across is that I found her attitude immature. I related it to my attitudes when I was in high school and in my 20's. Also, you made the leap from "bitchy attitude" to "she's a bitch". I didn't say that she was a bitch, and it was only implied that her attitude was bitchy.

    Re-reading what I wrote, I notice I still don't stick to one point and tend to write my train of thought instead of any sort of logical answer. There is a point in that paragraph I wrote, but it's not very clear.

    Here, I'll try again. You asked "Do you relate to this for instance, or did you one time at least?". My answer is: I probably did relate to it in my late teens and 20s, but not now. Her attitudes and thinking seem immature to me.
    The thing you are not aware of is that I (and the woman in the video most likely) had to reach 27-28 years of age to be able to develop that "attitude" against other people, i.e., to allow myself to disengage from people that didn't respect or fit with my preferences... And the reflex to go with other people's preferences is "still" there...

    You OTOH are saying you were already acting like that in your teens and 20s... Don't you see that there's a discrepancy here? You were self-centered and ego-dominant in your teens and 20s... I and she OTOH were already centered outside ourselves, on others... and now are trying to become more self-centered, which you liken to your "bitchy" "arrogant" teen self... We are trying to learn to be like that in our 30s don't you see that?

    You and I seem to have started threading on the same path but from opposite ends...

    You already had a strong Fi at the beginning and I had a strong Fe... You've balanced it with Fe in your 50s and become more caring about others whereas I am still trying to balance mine with Fi...so as to be able to become more self-centered...

  4. #164
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    The thing you are not aware of is that I (and the woman in the video most likely) had to reach 27-28 years of age to be able to develop that "attitude" against other people, i.e., to allow myself to disengage from people that didn't respect or fit with my preferences... And the reflex to go with other people's preferences is "still" there...

    You OTOH are saying you were already acting like that in your teens and 20s... Don't you see that there's a discrepancy here? You were self-centered and ego-dominant in your teens and 20s... I and she OTOH were already centered outside ourselves, on others... and now are trying to become more self-centered, which you liken to your "bitchy" "arrogant" teen self... We are trying to learn to be like that in our 30s don't you see that?

    You and I seem to have started threading on the same path but from opposite ends...

    You already had a strong Fi at the beginning and I had a strong Fe... You've balanced it with Fe in your 50s and become more caring about others whereas I am still trying to balance mine with Fi...so as to be able to become more self-centered...
    So, a few words about how I do or don't relate to a video tells you everything about who I am and what I've experienced? You've made quite a BIG leap there, assuming that all I was in my teens and 20s was self-centered and ego-dominant. People are not that 2-dimensional and flat.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #165
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    So, a few words about how I do or don't relate to a video tells you everything about who I am and what I've experienced? You've made quite a BIG leap there, assuming that all I was in my teens and 20s was self-centered and ego-dominant. People are not that 2-dimensional and flat.
    @Eilonwy you are focusing on all the wrong things...

    I am at my wits end... This is what I'll say to you.... I am an INFJ and I have NO idea what you are talking about... I cannot even relate to you...

    Please do tell me, what were you like in your 20s and 30s?

    How did you spend your free time?

    What activities did you do?

    What caused you the most distress?

    Did you continously blame yourself for your failures and not being good enough?

  6. #166
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    holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
    when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".

    lets break this down:

    when you claim: statement X
    you express: that you believe statement X is true.
    and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.

    meaning...
    when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
    you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
    which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.

    on the other hand:
    if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
    you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
    and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
    but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):
    then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
    you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.

  7. #167
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Sorry the link didn't work on my side...
    That's strange. It does for me...

    INFJs have a reflex that they've learnt in their family environment that basically tells them others (parental authority) matter more than them... I have a codependent reflex for instance... It's some kind of conditioning that used to compel me to give others' preferences and thoughts about myself more weight than my own... It's a lack of self-identity...and dependence on external feedback for self-identity...
    I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, but regardless, I don't see any conflict with the 4's basic fear.

    My basic desire is to correct things...bring order to chaos...create an harmonious system...cause disharmony triggers my reflex and causes anxiety in me...
    That's because you're a 1. Just because you're a INFJ and don't identify with 4 drives, doesn't preclude other INFJs from identifying with them. Not all INFJs will feel the same way as you.

    This is just circular reasoning.

    These are not my key motivations...I desire "to be" the rescuer...
    See above.

    These are clearly IxFP types...
    I would sincerely doubt that all of these are IxFPs. And there's a whole bunch of potential NFJs in there: Jeremy Irons, Kate Winslet, Joni Mitchell, Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Maria Callas, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Stevie Nicks, Paul Simon, Cat Stevens, Feist...

    This is clearly describing Fi... Fi trying to maintain the feeling of high feeling in the ego...trying to fine tune...
    Seriously? Are you forgetting the entire INFJ doorslam thread? There was a great deal of discussion about INFJs cultivating certain identities and emotions, while tuning out others.

    All these descriptions mentione building a stable self and identity... These are related to building up the ego... The mechanism here is based on building up the ego...
    And INFJs can't have identity issues?

    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Fi
    Fi

    Fi...rejecting family=rejecting Fe...

    Fi=me me me..

    Snobbish?

    Which type does the bolded part remind you? What's its mirror image?

    ^This...is crucial...

    Thanks for the link...This definition much more clearly points to "Fi" types... Fi-Se and Fi-Ne not only scans the environment for ego nourishment but also for threats to the ego...but the mechanism prevents the individual from confronting and strenghtening his\her true self...
    Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.

    You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #168
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's strange. It does for me...
    Office internet blocked it appearently...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm not sure that this is necessarily true, but regardless, I don't see any conflict with the 4's basic fear.
    Enneagram 4 Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
    INFJs yield to the idea that they don't have a distinct identity or personal significance and that others (Fe strata, i.e. parents) matter more than them at childhood...It's completely in conflict...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That's because you're a 1. Just because you're a INFJ and don't identify with 4 drives, doesn't preclude other INFJs from identifying with them. Not all INFJs will feel the same way as you.

    This is just circular reasoning.
    No, appearently you don't know what INFJ really is... The descriptions of INFJs describe this angelic mystical creatures and martyrs but it's just a fancy way of saying codependency...

    Also check this...

    INFJ denotes a mechanism that the individual had to adopt at childhood so as to satisfy a narcissistic parent... Similar mechanisms may be at play for all IxxJ types...

    What @Eilonwy perceives as arrogance in the video is actually INFJs trying to dismantle the codependent reflex...and reclaim their self and identity... And this is not related enneagram 4's building up identity cause that is another reflex that 4s adopt at childhood... INFJs try to dismantle their own reflex (or coping mechanism) in their 30s... It may be the same age for enneagram 4s with their respective reflex...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    See above.
    The "rescuer" reflex is coming from INFJs' codependent traits...And yes, that requires enneagram 1 as you also said...Enneagram 4s needing rescuers means Fi types want Fe types to take care of them...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I would sincerely doubt that all of these are IxFPs. And there's a whole bunch of potential NFJs in there: Jeremy Irons, Kate Winslet, Joni Mitchell, Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Maria Callas, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Stevie Nicks, Paul Simon, Cat Stevens, Feist...
    I've come to associate anyone who uses too much eyeliner or weird clothing for the sake of differentiating themselves from others with FPs...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Seriously? Are you forgetting the entire INFJ doorslam thread? There was a great deal of discussion about INFJs cultivating certain identities and emotions, while tuning out others.
    What if they turn out to be enneagram 4s?

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    And INFJs can't have identity issues?
    Not till 30s...at which time they become aware of their own reflex for relinquishing their own identity for the sake of others'... I didn't have a fashion sense of my own till 30s...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Again, I agree that 4 and Fi have a lot of cross-over, but not to the degree that Ni is shut out. You have such an "all or nothing" attitude about this. People are not that simple. Type correlation isn't that simple. I'm a Social dom; does that automatically make me a FJ? Of course not.
    I don't think Ni (recognizing underlying patterns in things) has anything to do with enneagram 4... I think so-dom comes from having a high ego...and sp comes from high superego and sx from high id...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    You're stereotyping your own MBTI type to fit your enneagram traits. It doesn't work like that.
    Yeah I am using myself as the benchmark...but also trying to find external evidence in type descriptions...

    The bottom line is that enneagram 4 clearly defines Fi-dom or aux in MBTI... And that makes it impossible for a Fe-dom or aux to be an enneagram 4 main type... They may have 4 in their second or third type in their tritype but not as the primary one...

  9. #169
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    holy fuck... alright, i am going to go about this as clearly as i can:
    when you make a statement, what other people see is not only the statement itself, but "this person (you) is expressing the thought that the statement is true".

    lets break this down:

    when you claim: statement X
    you express: that you believe statement X is true.
    and you demonstrate: the implications for what can be expected of you given your belief in X.

    meaning...
    when you claim: you have the tendency to mistakenly - incorrectly - attribute responsibility and blame to yourself.
    you are expressing: the belief that attributing responsibility and blame to yourself would be a mistake, incorrect to do so.
    which demonstrates: the tendency to reject that the thought of attributing responsibility to yourself is correct.

    on the other hand:
    if you were claiming: you have the tendency to correctly attribute responsibility for yourself.
    you would be expressing: the belief that you attribute and blame to yourself correctly - you are responsible.
    and you would in fact be demonstrating: the tendency to hold yourself responsible and self blame,
    but if that was true (very unlikely if this is "from your youth" or "the start of the journey", unless...):

    then when you make the claim: the tendency to attribute responsibility for yourself is too much of a burden
    you would be expressing: the belief that taking responsibility for what you believe yourself to actually be responsible for... is too much of a burden.
    No it means, I was left ignorant of some hard facts of life while being brought up by my parents, and I had to learn them like a child would but in my 30s... They inadvertantly programmed me in a way that suggested it was OK to relinquish self preferences and rights for the sake of others...

    Your tritype suggests to me by the way that you are Ne-Fi-Se... ENFP?

  10. #170

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