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  1. #151
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    You know, it's been a long time since I was 20. I don't remember every relationship and what exactly I was thinking at the time. In high school, my friends and I would talk about people the way the girl in the video was talking--treat me this way and screw you. In my 20's I was a major bitch to my co-workers at the convenience store I worked at. I would write scathing (and I mean scathing) notes telling them just how incompetent I thought they were. At the time I was proud of those notes. A few months later, when I re-read the notebook, I was horrified at what a stuck-up, know-it-all, arrogant asshole I had been. I don't remember if I ever apologized or not. It's very possible I didn't because I was too embarrassed and afraid (hmmm? does that sound familiar?). But, eventually, I realized somewhere along the line that I needed to apologize for my mistakes. Especially if I expected people to apologize to me for their mistakes.
    First of all she's not being a bitch... She's asserting her own preferences and rights...

    The quoted part for instance is alien to me... Cause the way you've been acting feels to me as if you've been some kind of a "sinner" in the first half of your life and with age you've become wiser and have seen the error of your ways and are now repenting...

    You have been confessing and repenting your sins in this forum so as to make peace with yourself... This is your purpose in the forum... The problem is by assuming you were an INFJ when you were committing those sins, you are putting people who identify as the INFJ type into the same pot of sinners...

    What you fail to notice is that I as an INFJ have been feeling as a sinner since my youth and trying to gradually feel less shameful and less of a sinner... You've started the road sin, shame and guilt-free and now feeling those down the road... I've been carrying that load since the start and am trying to gradually ease my burden... INFJs have been feeling the way you've come to feel now in your 50s since their teens and 20s... So I've been carrying that "burden" for 20 years now...

    "In high school, my friends and I would talk about people the way the girl in the video was talking--treat me this way and screw you. In my 20's I was a major bitch to my co-workers at the convenience store I worked at. I would write scathing (and I mean scathing) notes telling them just how incompetent I thought they were. At the time I was proud of those notes. A few months later, when I re-read the notebook, I was horrified at what a stuck-up, know-it-all, arrogant asshole I had been."

    ^This is not what INFJs do in their teens... INFJs on the contrary feel that there's something wrong with themselves (not the others) when people treat them badly... We gradually learn that it's not we INFJs who are always at fault but it's sometimes others who are at fault... You are describing just the reverse of the process...

    If you've been a major bitch in your teens, you must have been an ExFx... With age, you've come to reconcile with your mirror image (shadow), i.e. IxFx... However, your core type is still (but a more rounded, polished) ExFx... That's why I can't identify with your line of reasoning, your youth experiences etc...

    I am at the moment at more or less where you are now...At the start of the road I was at a place that you'll perhaps reach in your 70s... But it's not a that good place to be...finding fault with yourself for everything happening around you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    ETA: The caterpiller, the cocoon, and the butterfly are all the same individual at different stages, even though they look nothing alike. Perhaps that's what's happening here. (Eh, me, I would be more of a moth )

    ETA2: Perhaps, though, it's important to you to figure out why my thinking seems so different from yours. If that's the case, I'll try harder to help you figure it out.
    Yes, but your and my processes have started in the reverse order... The desired place is not the the end or the start but somewhere in the middle where you are not too aggressive (blaming) or yielding (apologetic) but rather assertive with healthy ego boundaries...

    I think you are confused about your type...
    @hazelsees

    This is why I am concerned about this INFJ (mis)typing thing... I think berated myself for far too long and far more than an average person... and when someone comes along and tells me that I've not suffered enough and that I should not run away from myself but should keep suffering more, it drives me crazy... When that person claims that she's INFJ on top of that, I keep telling myself "what the hell are you talking about?"

    @Eilonwy this is how what you are saying feels to me... What you've been telling about your young self does not relate to someone with a strong superego, i.e., someone who finds fault at himself\herself rather than others... So there's NO way your young self can be an IxxJ type...

    Do this test once more but this time think how your young self acted and see how the result comes out...

    Thanks for your contribution though...

  2. #152
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    First of all she's not being a bitch... She's asserting her own preferences and rights...

    The quoted part for instance is alien to me... Cause the way you've been acting feels to me as if you've been some kind of a "sinner" in the first half of your life and with age you've become wiser and have seen the error of your ways and are now repenting...

    You have been confessing and repenting your sins in this forum so as to make peace with yourself... This is your purpose in the forum... The problem is by assuming you were an INFJ when you were committing those sins, you are putting people who identify as the INFJ type into the same pot of sinners...

    What you fail to notice is that I as an INFJ have been feeling as a sinner since my youth and trying to gradually feel less shameful and less of a sinner... You've started the road sin, shame and guilt-free and now feeling those down the road... I've been carrying that load since the start and am trying to gradually ease my burden... INFJs have been feeling the way you've come to feel now in your 50s since their teens and 20s... So I've been carrying that "burden" for 20 years now...

    "In high school, my friends and I would talk about people the way the girl in the video was talking--treat me this way and screw you. In my 20's I was a major bitch to my co-workers at the convenience store I worked at. I would write scathing (and I mean scathing) notes telling them just how incompetent I thought they were. At the time I was proud of those notes. A few months later, when I re-read the notebook, I was horrified at what a stuck-up, know-it-all, arrogant asshole I had been."

    ^This is not what INFJs do in their teens... INFJs on the contrary feel that there's something wrong with themselves (not the others) when people treat them badly... We gradually learn that it's not we INFJs who are always at fault but it's sometimes others who are at fault... You are describing just the reverse of the process...

    If you've been a major bitch in your teens, you must have been an ExFx... With age, you've come to reconcile with your mirror image (shadow), i.e. IxFx... However, your core type is still (but a more rounded, polished) ExFx... That's why I can't identify with your line of reasoning, your youth experiences etc...

    I am at the moment at more or less where you are now...At the start of the road I was at a place that you'll perhaps reach in your 70s... But it's not a that good place to be...finding fault with yourself for everything happening around you...



    Yes, but your and my processes have started in the reverse order... The desired place is not the the end or the start but somewhere in the middle where you are not too aggressive (blaming) or yielding (apologetic) but rather assertive with healthy ego boundaries...

    I think you are confused about your type...
    @hazelsees

    This is why I am concerned about this INFJ (mis)typing thing... I think berated myself for far too long and far more than an average person... and when someone comes along and tells me that I've not suffered enough and that I should not run away from myself but should keep suffering more, it drives me crazy... When that person claims that she's INFJ on top of that, I keep telling myself "what the hell are you talking about?"

    @Eilonwy this is how what you are saying feels to me... What you've been telling about your young self does not relate to someone with a strong superego, i.e., someone who finds fault at himself\herself rather than others... So there's NO way your young self can be an IxxJ type...

    Do this test once more but this time think how your young self acted and see how the result comes out...

    Thanks for your contribution though...
    Are you sure the guilt and sin thing is INFJ? Because I had the same experience as you, but I attribute it to religion rather than personality.

  3. #153
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    Are you sure the guilt and sin thing is INFJ? Because I had the same experience as you, but I attribute it to religion rather than personality.
    It can be religion and any other set of values imposed by the parental authority... I do mean not "sin" in a more global sense than religion... Sin\shame\guilt is what you feel when you fail to satisfy the paretnal authority...
    Last edited by yeghor; 04-30-2014 at 11:43 AM. Reason: Edit

  4. #154
    Senior Member BlackDog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    It can be religion and any other set of values imposed by the parental authority... I do not mean "sin" in a more global sense than religion... Sin\shame\guilt is what you feel when you fail to satisfy the paretnal authority...
    By the way, since you theorize about INFJs, although somewhat controversially, do you think that a narcissist can be an INFJ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    By the way, since you theorize about INFJs, although somewhat controversially, do you think that a narcissist can be an INFJ?
    ahem...

    disclaimer: i am not accusing INFJs of having NPD - just like being sad doesn't mean you suffer from DPD, just like having an irrational fear doesn't mean you suffer from PPD, the average human being exhibits degrees of narcissistic traits regardless of suffering from full fledged NPD.

    Pathological narcissism occurs in a spectrum of severity. In its more extreme forms, it is narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). NPD is considered to result from a person's belief that they are flawed in a way that makes them fundamentally unacceptable to others. This belief is held below the person's conscious awareness; such a person would, if questioned, typically deny thinking such a thing. To protect themselves against the intolerably painful rejection and isolation that (they imagine) would follow if others recognized their (perceived) defective nature, such people make strong attempts to control others’ views of them and behavior towards them.
    - Golomb, Elan PhD (1992). Trapped in the Mirror

    People who are narcissistic commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers, they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined. To avoid such situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.
    - American Psychiatric Association: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition.

    It has been suggested that narcissistic personality disorder may be related to defenses against shame. Psychiatrist Glen Gabbard suggested NPD could be broken down into two subtypes. He saw the "oblivious" subtype as being grandiose, arrogant, and thick-skinned, and the "hyper-vigilant" subtype as being easily hurt, oversensitive, and ashamed. In his view, the oblivious subtype presents for admiration, envy, and appreciation of a powerful, grandiose self that is the antithesis of a weak internalized self, which hides in shame, while the hypervigilant subtype neutralizes devaluation by seeing others as unjust abusers.

    theorists have identified two types of narcissism. Those narcissists who have been diagnosed with narcissistic grandiosity express behavior "through interpersonally exploitative acts, lack of empathy, intense envy, aggression, and exhibitionism." Another type of narcissism is narcissistic vulnerability. It entails (on a conscious level) "helplessness, emptiness, low self-esteem, and shame, which can be expressed in the behavior as being socially avoidant in situations where their self-presentation is not possible so they withdraw, or the approval they need/expect is not being met."

  6. #156
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lion 4.5 View Post
    By the way, since you theorize about INFJs, although somewhat controversially, do you think that a narcissist can be an INFJ?
    Traits and signs[edit]

    An obvious self-focus in interpersonal exchanges - NO

    Problems in sustaining satisfying relationships - MAYBE

    A lack of psychological awareness (see insight in psychology and psychiatry, egosyntonic) - NO

    Difficulty with empathy - NO

    Problems distinguishing the self from others (see narcissism and boundaries) - MAYBE in the reverse direction

    Hypersensitivity to any insults or imagined insults (see criticism and narcissists, narcissistic rage and narcissistic injury) - MAYBE much better now

    Vulnerability to shame rather than guilt - MAYBE not sure of the difference...

    Haughty body language - NO

    Flattery towards people who admire and affirm them (narcissistic supply) - NO

    Detesting those who do not admire them (narcissistic abuse) - NO

    Using other people without considering the cost of doing so - NO

    Pretending to be more important than they really are - NO

    Bragging (subtly but persistently) and exaggerating their achievements - NO

    Claiming to be an "expert" at many things - NO

    Inability to view the world from the perspective of other people - NO

    Denial of remorse and gratitude - NO

    Though I wouldn't really know if I were one...

  7. #157
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I explain it from this post forward...
    I'm still not sure I fully grasp what you're getting at though.

    Besides, while I do acknowledge the likelihood of a 3w4 and ENFJ crossover, I personally don't think there is a significant overlap between 4w3 and INFP. I would think it rare for an INFP to be one. Based on the limited information you have provided, I don't see it as a connecting factor between INFPs and ENFJs in regards to enneagram.

    And I still don't see a reasonable argument against INFJs being 4s. For example, here's a list of 4 traits:

    Quote Originally Posted by Personality Type FOUR: The Individualist
    Generally, Fours are intuitive, sensitive, impressionable, quiet, introspective, passionate, romantic, elegant, witty, imaginative, and self-expressive.

    Fours get into conflicts by being moody, emotionally demanding, self-absorbed, withholding, temperamental, dramatic, pretentious, and self-indulgent.

    At their best, Fours are creative, inspired, honest with themselves, emotionally strong, humane, self-aware, discrete, and self-renewing.
    Link

    I don't see anything there that overtly clashes with INFJ type.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  8. #158
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    First of all she's not being a bitch... She's asserting her own preferences and rights...
    Show me where in my post that I said the girl in the video was being a bitch?

    The quoted part for instance is alien to me... Cause the way you've been acting feels to me as if you've been some kind of a "sinner" in the first half of your life and with age you've become wiser and have seen the error of your ways and are now repenting...
    I'm going to answer the second part of this first. I have changed with age, but I don't think I've changed that much. Not in certain fundamental ways. I've gained a lot of experience which has changed how I view things. Here's an example that has nothing to do with type: I grew up in the 60s--peace, love, rock & roll. When I was very young, I took in the message that war was bad (which it is), but along with that message, I also took in the message that the soldiers fighting the war were somehow bad, too. This was the Vietnam era, in the US. The soldiers returning home were vilified for atrocities, drug use, and losing. And I was a pre-teen, so my understanding of the concept of war and the soldiers' role in it was oversimplified. I thought that we could do away with war and soldiers and all live in peace if people just were nice to each other. Gradually, that view changed as I grew away from the ideal in my head by observing how the world and the people in it actually worked. And also, the societal messages changed, too, and I took those in and learned to evaluate them rather than accept them blindly. The way I view war didn't change much, but I did start to see that human nature is such that conflict is almost inevitable. Even in a peaceful world, all it takes is one person wanting power or land or attention. And I learned that people are mostly indifferent. They want to live their lives in peace, and as long as there is some semblance of "it's not affecting me, so it's not my problem", they won't take a stand. Even me. I work this way, too. Mostly indifferent. Wanting to live my life in peace. Anyway...

    Back to the first part of your statement. I'm not a sinner, I'm human. I'm flawed and I make mistakes. As for how that's playing out here on this forum, I realize it looks like atonement, and some of it certainly feels like atonement to me, and in a real way it is atonement. When I started here on the forum, there were Fi/Fe and INFJ/INFP wars going on. I was mystified. What was these people's beef with INFJs and Fe? I'm not this horrible person that they keep saying I am. I definitely have the same needs for feeling understood and for time to process my thoughts and emotions. Yeah, I vent out loud, and sometimes what I say about others is really ugly, but I definitely don't intend to cause pain or misunderstandings, and besides, we all do it--all humans act this way. What the heck do they want from me? What is the problem here? I just don't see it. But the same complaints would come up from people who didn't seem to have a beef, too. The back and forth kept happening and it seemed to be getting nowhere, so I retreated to my blog to work on my own family issues, to record my care giving experiences, and to explore typology by letting people have an honest look into my head as I did these things. My blog's a mess, much like my mind is.

    And then a lot of things happened all at about the same time. I started to have some interesting discussions about typology and it was exciting to see the connections that were starting to form. And just as suddenly as it started, it ended. I won't go into specifics, but, again, several things that had nothing to do with each other happened at about the same time and the discussions came to a screeching halt. (Heh. It just occurred to me as I'm writing this that my reaction was to go off into a metaphorical bathroom, just like I went into a real one when I was frustrated as a kid. Pretty funny.) Anyway, I took that time away to think about all that had happened and to try to deal with all of the emotions that resulted, and eventually came back out of that metaphorical bathroom. I still couldn't see what the problem was with Fe and INFJs, but I missed the interesting discussions and went looking for others. You should know the rest of the story from the doorslam thread, so I'm not going to repeat it here. And my time, right now, is limited, so I'm going to jump ahead and say that I finally did see what the problem was with Fe and INFJs, at least here on this forum. And I decided that, when opportunities came up, I would speak up about what I learned. And since what I learned deals with the problems with Fe and INFJs, and not the benefits of Fe and INFJ, my posts come off as the sinner atoning for her sins. And, like I said before, that atonement is really there*, but it's not all that's there. It's all that certain people are focusing on, so they can't see the rest of what I'm saying.

    I gotta go take care of real life for a bit. I'll answer the rest of this post when I can.

    ETA: *The atonement is a pattern I hadn't noticed before, so it'll probably show up until I pay more attention to it and figure it out.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  9. #159
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I'm still not sure I fully grasp what you're getting at though.

    Besides, while I do acknowledge the likelihood of a 3w4 and ENFJ crossover, I personally don't think there is a significant overlap between 4w3 and INFP. I would think it rare for an INFP to be one. Based on the limited information you have provided, I don't see it as a connecting factor between INFPs and ENFJs in regards to enneagram.

    And I still don't see a reasonable argument against INFJs being 4s. For example, here's a list of 4 traits:

    Link

    I don't see anything there that overtly clashes with INFJ type.
    Sorry the link didn't work on my side...

    Yeah the traits listed sound applicable to the INFJs... however these do not fit with INFJ...

    THE INDIVIDUALIST

    Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
    INFJs have a reflex that they've learnt in their family environment that basically tells them others (parental authority) matter more than them... I have a codependent reflex for instance... It's some kind of conditioning that used to compel me to give others' preferences and thoughts about myself more weight than my own... It's a lack of self-identity...and dependence on external feedback for self-identity...

    Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)
    My basic desire is to correct things...bring order to chaos...create an harmonious system...cause disharmony triggers my reflex and causes anxiety in me...

    Key Motivations: Want to express themselves and their individuality, to create and surround themselves with beauty, to maintain certain moods and feelings, to withdraw to protect their self-image, to take care of emotional needs before attending to anything else, to attract a "rescuer."
    These are not my key motivations...I desire "to be" the rescuer...

    Examples: Rumi, Frédéric Chopin, Pyotr I Tchaikovsky, Gustav Mahler, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, Edgar Allen Poe, Yukio Mishima, Virginia Woolf, Anne Frank , Karen Blixen / Isak Dinesen, Anaîs Nin, Tennessee Williams, J.D. Salinger, Anne Rice, Frida Kahlo, Diane Arbus, Martha Graham, Rudolf Nureyev, Cindy Sherman, Hank Williams, Billie Holiday, Judy Garland, Maria Callas, Miles Davis, Keith Jarrett, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Paul Simon, Leonard Cohen, Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens), Ferron, Cher, Stevie Nicks, Annie Lennox, Prince, Sarah McLachlan, Alanis Morrisette, Feist, Florence ( + the Machine) Welch, Amy Winehouse, Ingmar Bergman, Lars von Trier, Marlon Brando, Jeremy Irons, Angelina Jolie, Winona Ryder, Kate Winslet, Nicolas Cage, Johnny Depp, Tattoo Artist Kat Von D., Magician Criss Angel, Streetcar Named Desire “Blanche duBois”
    These are clearly IxFP types...

    In the course of their lives, Fours may try several different identities on for size, basing them on styles, preferences, or qualities they find attractive in others. But underneath the surface, they still feel uncertain about who they really are. The problem is that they base their identity largely on their feelings. When Fours look inward they see a kaleidoscopic, ever-shifting pattern of emotional reactions. Indeed, Fours accurately perceive a truth about human nature—that it is dynamic and ever changing. But because they want to create a stable, reliable identity from their emotions, they attempt to cultivate only certain feelings while rejecting others. Some feelings are seen as “me,” while others are “not me.” By attempting to hold on to specific moods and express others, Fours believe that they are being true to themselves.
    This is clearly describing Fi... Fi trying to maintain the feeling of high feeling in the ego...trying to fine tune...

    All these descriptions mentione building a stable self and identity... These are related to building up the ego... The mechanism here is based on building up the ego...

    In IxxJs, the mechanism is superego dominant, and is based on suppressing the ego and id...

    I can see 4 or 5 as a secondary type in INFJs but not as a main type... The main type has to be a superego dominant one... most likely 1....

  10. #160
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    Show me where in my post that I said the girl in the video was being a bitch?
    In high school, my friends and I would talk about people the way the girl in the video was talking--treat me this way and screw you. In my 20's I was a major bitch to my co-workers at the convenience store I worked at.
    You likened her behaviour in the video to your bitchiness...,thereby also making her a bitch...

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