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  1. #131
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This does trigger inferior Te, because it seems an inhuman (that's a better word that "impersonal" IMO) way of categorizing people. It's not grasping someone for who they are, but how they fit into some system.
    This struck me hard when I read it. I can see this in my ISFJ sister and, usually the Je/Fe things that I can see in her are also present in me. Not always to the same degree, but they are there. And I do think in terms of the group and group dynamics, so it makes sense that I also categorize people to fit into some system. But the thought that I do this, that I might not see people for who they are, is repulsive to me. I don't know what to do with this information. I don't know if I can change it and right now I'm not willing to embrace it.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  2. #132
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    This struck me hard when I read it. I can see this in my ISFJ sister and, usually the Je/Fe things that I can see in her are also present in me. Not always to the same degree, but they are there. And I do think in terms of the group and group dynamics, so it makes sense that I also categorize people to fit into some system. But the thought that I do this, that I might not see people for who they are, is repulsive to me. I don't know what to do with this information. I don't know if I can change it and right now I'm not willing to embrace it.
    Please don't think about changing it, perhaps start with just holding awareness and sitting with that for a bit, even if it seems emotionally troubling. That feeling is ok and cannot hurt you. I'm glad that you're not sending it back to OA, which is the common pattern. It's ok not to embrace it, just sit with it, make a space on the bench for it.

    To expand a bit, I know this need to categorize is why I feel on the spot and uncomfortable at times interacting with Pi doms, especially when first getting to know them, because I can actively feel them deciding where to place me in their schema. I hope you don't take offense to me saying that, because there's no reason you should feel badly about the very natural way you are wired. However, having an awareness of being wired this way, and then realizing that others are not, is what is the valuable takeaway.

    It is totally reasonable for any function or function combination to do what it does.

    From my lens, I simply feel I am being scrutinized for "what is she good for", "where does she fit" and "is this person potentially of value for me to interact with". Fe and Te each have different criteria of course. I can, in real life, try to deflect that analysis because I personally don't do or like that type of screening. But overall for me, it's just wasted energy. Either you like me or you don't. Either you think I am useful or you don't.

    And it's taken me such a very long time to get here, since as INFP I can sense your interior space and as e9 I am emotionally wired to try to be likeable, forgetting to just be me and focus on my needs equally. You like my sense of humor? Ah, I'll try to be funny for you. You love my singing? I will invite you to shows and try to make sure you feel satisfied as well. You love that I listen? I will be the best listener ever. I can sense what people like and need and I try to be that for YOU. Customized version of me, for each individual in my life. It has at times left me feeling like I don't even know who I am, and like all of us, I am on a growth journey too, learning to healthily balance these natural tendencies ... but enough about that.

    So, just sit with the information AND the emotion it evokes. I know you haven't rejected it and are not sure what to do with it. You're not a bad person for being how you are. It's not BAD to have a system. It just is. So, knowing that you will and essentially do need to create categories for people, it just makes sense to have good categories, is all. Knowing that other people don't think of other people that way is a start, doing away with any assumption that everyone does this.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  3. #133
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilonwy View Post
    This struck me hard when I read it. I can see this in my ISFJ sister and, usually the Je/Fe things that I can see in her are also present in me. Not always to the same degree, but they are there. And I do think in terms of the group and group dynamics, so it makes sense that I also categorize people to fit into some system. But the thought that I do this, that I might not see people for who they are, is repulsive to me. I don't know what to do with this information. I don't know if I can change it and right now I'm not willing to embrace it.
    Well, part of who people are is how they fit into a system. We don't exist as separate pods, but we exist in relation to one another. So really, every attitude tends to be a piece of a whole truth. But it can grate us when someone's blind spot is our truth.
    Even worse is that you (in the general sense) really do possess all those attitudes, but are often unaware of how they surface. Our mind often will frame it in our preferred manner.

    For example, Je types often assign a role to someone because they personally like that person, not necessarily because they are the best fit for the role. But they don't or can't see it that way. And it's not even "wrong", since personal dynamic has a real factor in a system anyway. Conversely, a Fi type may value an individual because of some task they do or need they fill, but this feels like using someone. But those skills are a part of that person, so it doesn't mean they aren't being valued for who they are.

    Anyway, the point is that there can be clashes & misunderstandings because of these different ways of valuing people.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #134
    Vulnerability Eilonwy's Avatar
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    I've decided to move what I previously posted here to a new thread so that I don't derail this thread. The new thread is here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Well, part of who people are is how they fit into a system. We don't exist as separate pods, but we exist in relation to one another. So really, every attitude tends to be a piece of a whole truth. But it can grate us when someone's blind spot is our truth.
    Even worse is that you (in the general sense) really do possess all those attitudes, but are often unaware of how they surface. Our mind often will frame it in our preferred manner.

    For example, Je types often assign a role to someone because they personally like that person, not necessarily because they are the best fit for the role. But they don't or can't see it that way. And it's not even "wrong", since personal dynamic has a real factor in a system anyway. Conversely, a Fi type may value an individual because of some task they do or need they fill, but this feels like using someone. But those skills are a part of that person, so it doesn't mean they aren't being valued for who they are.

    Anyway, the point is that there can be clashes & misunderstandings because of these different ways of valuing people.
    Thank you for this. It helped. I'm still trying to wrap my head around how differently other types experience the world. I feel like I'm in flux--sometimes I can catch a glimpse, but then it goes away and I'm back to all of my own biases and habits. I do appreciate how patient everyone has been with me during this process.
    Johari / Nohari

    “That we are capable only of being what we are remains our unforgivable sin.” ― Gene Wolfe

    reminder to self: "That YOU that you are so proud of is a story woven together by your interpreter module to account for as much of your behavior as it can incorporate, and it denies or rationalizes the rest." "Who's in Charge? Free Will and the Science of the Brain" by Michael S. Gazzaniga

  5. #135
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    I should have posted my take on INFJ/INFP conflict in the "INFJ/INFP Points of Contention" thread because now I feel like I'm derailing this one. Oh well.

    Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    From an Ne perspective, I am not so sure about this anymore. I used to believe there was more openness but experientially the S types have proven more adaptable to updating or changing their opinions.

    Let's look at some contrasts in this thread. (I don't want to pull you into discussion on this) but there is a high degree of subjectivity surrounding this purported openness to changing opinion. I think each INFJ who has shared in thread has taken the OP at face value. The statements of INFPs in thread, however, are not, and encounter fare more skepticism. According to yeghor, INFPs are in here to protect egos, and in anticipation of this common projection, the INFPs pre-disclaimed that projection. Yet is this taken at face value? No.
    Yeah, I've heard of and seen the notorious INFJ "tunnel vision", but I've seen more extreme closed-mindedness in some SJs (and Se-doms when it comes to their inferior Ni ideas and hunches). I'm not denying that I've seen some closed-mindedness and dismissal of INFPs' viewpoints in this thread (the most obvious example being when INFPs were accused of whining and trying to protect their egos when they simply stated a differing opinion.) I know that you and OrangeAppled have seen certain negative patterns in INFJs' thinking and behavior numerous times before this, but I've only seen some of it so far, not enough to form an overall opinion of them as closed-minded

    There appears a varying degree of ego investment in some Ni-Je judgements vs others, some are latched onto and pursued with much more vigour.
    Yes, this is true. With every INFJ, there are certain externally-directed judgments that are flexible and others that are rigid, and the healthier the INFJ, the fewer judgments are grasped onto at the expense of paying attention to incoming data that contradicts them.

    Thanks for your input.

  6. #136
    Senior Member hazelsees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To expand a bit, I know this need to categorize is why I feel on the spot and uncomfortable at times interacting with Pi doms, especially when first getting to know them, because I can actively feel them deciding where to place me in their schema. I hope you don't take offense to me saying that, because there's no reason you should feel badly about the very natural way you are wired. However, having an awareness of being wired this way, and then realizing that others are not, is what is the valuable takeaway.

    It is totally reasonable for any function or function combination to do what it does.

    From my lens, I simply feel I am being scrutinized for "what is she good for", "where does she fit" and "is this person potentially of value for me to interact with". Fe and Te each have different criteria of course. I can, in real life, try to deflect that analysis because I personally don't do or like that type of screening. But overall for me, it's just wasted energy. Either you like me or you don't. Either you think I am useful or you don't.

    And it's taken me such a very long time to get here, since as INFP I can sense your interior space and as e9 I am emotionally wired to try to be likeable, forgetting to just be me and focus on my needs equally. You like my sense of humor? Ah, I'll try to be funny for you. You love my singing? I will invite you to shows and try to make sure you feel satisfied as well. You love that I listen? I will be the best listener ever. I can sense what people like and need and I try to be that for YOU. Customized version of me, for each individual in my life. It has at times left me feeling like I don't even know who I am, and like all of us, I am on a growth journey too, learning to healthily balance these natural tendencies ... but enough about that.
    See…this is where I get confused.
    Being as insightful and intuitive as you are, you are certainly picking up on an INFJ “reading” you. I just think possibly what you’re reading is not as evil as you think. I’m not sure an INFJ is trying to make you fit into a system. This INFJ is simply trying to get a feel of YOU. What is important to you. What do you enjoy? What do you believe. As you’re talking, what can I glean from the conversation so that I can adjust myself to what you need or what you want me to be for you….or what I can produce for you. I do not usually have a system to put you in….and even when I do, I often ask where you want to be. (I work with placing volunteers in their areas of passion and what they’re wired for) At a more personal level, I seem to get lost in others and often forget myself and what I believe. For some reason I thought this was Fe. This makes me doubt being an INFJ. If adjusting to others or the group is Fi, then I’m certainly Fi.
    There is so much that I’m confused about. I haven’t had much time to keep up lately, but have read a few threads over the last couple of months (here and there)…and I’m surprised and confused by what I’ve read. I’m trying to relate to the experiences of others here with INFJs—particularly INFPs and an ENTP with my relationships in real life and they do not seem to support each other. And it’s not that I refuse to see myself in a negative way—it’s just the negative things that real life people "say" about me are a bit opposite of what people here say about INFJs. Maybe I’m an INFP…but I really, really feel like Ni and Fe are my functions. Although, I could be confused about Fi and Fe (as noted above).

    I have two (possibly three) INFP friends who I love and admire and aspire to be like. They are amazingly insightful and intelligent and kind. And although we are alike in so many ways, they are more spontaneous and I am jealous of that. They only issue I’ve had, is when interacting with them in a way that could be critical on either side, we are both so careful of hurting the other that it gets ridiculous. I’m aware of it, but can’t stop it.

    INFP – “Hi...just wanted to let you know that we were out of THIS SUPPLY yesterday. But we did THIS instead and it turned out fine. But just wanted to let you know that we’re out.
    ME – “I’m sooo sorry. THAT is on back order and I should have ordered it sooner or at least let you know but I forgot. I’m really sorry. I hope it didn’t mess you up too much.”
    INFP—“I’m sorry I had to tell you. I didn’t mean to for you to feel bad about it. You already do so much and I should have told you last week that we were almost out.”
    ME—“No. I don’t feel bad for me…I feel bad that you had to work without THAT. And it’s my job to keep up with supplies and I should have checked in with you earlier. I hope it didn't mess up your work. I’m really, really sorry. “
    INFP--"No. You've had extra stuff on your plate and I forgot to tell you. I didn't mean to make you feel bad."
    And it goes on and on...

    But when we’re not in that mode, we have wonderful conversations and enjoy each other’s’ company immensely. Or at least I feel like we do. Maybe they think I’m awful and trying to put them in systems—and I’m unaware…and s/he really wants me to drop off the face of the earth.

  7. #137
    metamorphosing Flâneuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I find them so hideously inaccurate on just about everything; it's as if they "fill in" blanks so as to make others inferior, requiring "help" & benefitting from the INFJ. It's all about the INFJ's ego. I've never felt so unknown as when interacting with an INFJ. To have to constantly tip toe around their fragile egos is exhausting, which is why I won't do it anymore.

    The pattern here is typical. The INFJ is called out on their BS. INFJs in general will not directly address any criticism, but try to reframe it so as to deflect. It's not about INFJs being arrogant asses anymore, but why are INFPs so sensitive? This is also not logical of them (because doesn't believe the hype, INFPs are the logical ones, not INFJs) because they aren't addressing the argument, but instead attacking the speaker.
    I have seen these patterns in some INFJs, but I can't say I've found it typical of them. It sounds like the INFJs you've known are more narcissistic than most I've encountered. Admittedly, my close contact with INFJs in real life has been limited (a few warm but not-quite-deep friendships). I've seen a lot of these cognitive biases you're describing in ENFJs though.

    INFPs, don't accept their premise. Don't explain why or why not something is, but question IF it even is. [...] INFJs don't like it because it presents another possible interpretation of reality, when like all Pi-dom, they want ONE, and multiples threaten them. When an INFP is young & has less robust Ne & poor Si, it is fine for the INFJ because the INFP will tend to consider the INFJ premise as a view to be explored, and this deflection keeps the INFJ in the position of condescension that they like. But as our perceiving gets stronger (things are possible, but unlikely), our Fi provides depth of understanding & ability to spot inconsistencies in Si data patterns, we're more likely to question their premise. That's when there's a clash.
    I think this is a good take on INFJ/INFP conflict in situations where it's mainly the INFJ who is at fault. In my description I was trying to be objective, but I may have overemphasized the INFP's sensitivity and unintentionally made it sound like it's the source of most INFJ/INFP conflict; this is because it's sometimes easier for me to see my own flaws than those of others. (Which is also something that can make some IxFPs, (especially the e9s,) vulnerable to being condescended to and manipulated.)

    I've seen some INFJs get testy when their premises are questioned, but more often it seems like they just get silent. Sometimes it's hard for me to tell when an INFJ is subtly rejecting a viewpoint/brushing it off without even considering it vs. when they just need more time to process a differing opinion. Dominant Ni comes with a lot of cognitive strengths and some cognitive weaknesses, and I think one of those weaknesses is that (it's not as flexible as Ne; it settles on certain viewpoints and can be hard to budge. It's not always that the person won't consider different opinions; it's that it's natural for them to have one interpretation of something)* and they can't immediately "bounce" a perspective around like Ne-users can. (From my understanding of Ni vs. Ne; I might be off on this.) I'm guessing healthier INFJs will take a while to deeply process a differing viewpoint before ultimately either rejecting it or incorporating it and shifting their Ni perspective, while unhealthier ones will immediately reject it.
    *Edit: Never mind. I think Ni by itself is very fluid/dynamic, while it's Ni+Je that can be rigid.

    Offhand, I'd say I get a sense of someone as a whole, but am largely indifferent as to assigning it any value judgment. If I do, then it tends to be in relation to me (do I want to be around them?) not a universal judgement of their character. The rest I can relate to, but there's something more of a detachment to it than a painful sensitivity, unless we're using sensitivity to mean a more refined grasp of why people are as they are.
    That's interesting that you don't have the same painful sensitivity to being misunderstood that I do; I always thought that e4s were the most hurt by that.
    About INFP e9s vs. INFP e4s:
    I think my sensitivity to being misunderstood partially comes from the e9 uncertain sense of self combined with the Fi need for connection with the self; when someone's interpretation of who I am contradicts my self-knowledge, I sometimes get a feeling that they could be right even though I intellectually disagree. (If I recognize that a criticism is objectively true, it still hurts but it's not as internally disorienting and painful as when I think I'm being misunderstood.) It feels like I'm letting someone else yank around my sense of self (a thing that's especially essential to me as an IxFP) with something that isn't even true, and I resent them for it, and I resent myself for letting them do that to me.
    Maybe e4s (especially 4w5s) feel more resigned to being misunderstood, like they don't even expect most people to get them? Also, maybe their more certain sense of self isn't as vulnerable to feeling tilted by others' misperceptions.

    Okay... I have it. I think e9s suspend even perhaps a personal opinion of someone, whereas I only hold off on a universal one.
    And my personal opinion is not really static, or I allow awareness of potential to not make me jump to a unchangeable conclusion. I think some of it is that a judgement is really Te, whereas Fi rational reasoning is more about grasping meaning, or what someone's individual nature is, without a role being assigned (ie. friend, enemy, bad, good). Fe types tend to quickly put people into social roles (which is why the OP's account of that supposed INFP is odd). People who are not Fi types think of "values" as such defined, static things, when for an IxFP it's experienced as refining the inner scales to gauge value, and resonation with something on an essential level, not because it fits into a category. The essence of someone can be got at, but initially I can only say how much it appeals to me, not how it relates to humanity on a larger scale. As more data is gathered (more Ne sussing potential & Si noting consistent patterns in observable traits), then you may move closer to an outward judgement.
    I love your description of Fi and the difference between Fi values and FiTe judgments.
    I relate to what you're saying about holding off on making universal value judgments about people, and I think it's true that e9s are less likely to even form a personal opinion (especially a strong one) right away. I form a tentative impression of someone, but part of me distrusts it, recognizes its fallibility if I don't know the person well, and thinks of possibilities of what the person could be like that could contradict my impression. (Similar to what PeaceBaby said about Pe trying to debunk Ji.) I think maybe e4s trust their impressions more, while still keeping them open to change. I don't trust the impression enough for it to become an opinion, for the doubts to stop dancing around the impression, until I've been around them a while. (And then it takes even longer to make a universal value judgment about them.)

    I have an issue with it [INFJ judgement] because it's not based on a good grasp of someone, but rather, whether they take on an acceptable role as a peon in the INFJ's vision.
    I haven't seen much of this yet in INFJs, but like I said earlier, I've mostly had contact with healthier ones. About the bolded: certainly most aren't this narcissistic? I hope not. I know NiFe categorizes people, but I don't think they normally do it in such a self-aggrandizing way.

    This does trigger inferior Te, because it seems an inhuman (that's a better word that "impersonal" IMO) way of categorizing people. It's not grasping someone for who they are, but how they fit into some system.
    From my understanding: (Because INFJs are natural Ni users, not Fi users, most can't be as good as most INFPs are at "grasping" people in that deeply personal, microcosmic way. I think their way of understanding people is more detached (from an Fi perspective) without really being objective either, but it's equally insightful in a different way.*
    *Edit: From what I understand, Ni creates maps of reality (including other people) using conceptual impressions, and then Fe fits individuals into roles/categories. Ni's maps of people can be amazingly insightful and accurate, but sometimes to an Fi-user they seem to lack the "essence" of a person that we think our Feeling impressions capture. And of course, it's sometimes grating to IxFPs when we feel like we're being defined by external categories (Je) rather than internal essence (Ji).

    Loosely related: I also think that maybe INFJ empathy casts a wider net (maybe more easily triggered) and is more focused on "knowing" what others are feeling, while INFP empathy has a smaller net but is deeper and more focused on the 'vicarious experience' part of empathizing. (Maybe not; this could be another e9 thing.) But developed INFJs have their own brand of (amazing) depth just like developed INFPs do. INFJs rub me the wrong way occasionally, but I admire their strengths.

    INxPs bouncing around the room?
    I think that's more Pe-dom, period.
    I meant that the way Ne jumps from one idea to the next related idea (instead of exploring a single idea from multiple angles like Ni) can seem annoyingly random and lacking in focus to NJs, like the intellectual equivalent of bouncing around the room. (But I've also heard INFJs say they find Ne refreshing and inspiring.)

    Thanks for sharing your insights.
    Last edited by Flâneuse; 04-30-2014 at 08:38 AM.

  8. #138
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    I have seen these patterns in some INFJs, but I can't say I've found it typical of them. It sounds like the INFJs you've known are more narcissistic than most I've encountered. Admittedly, my close contact with INFJs in real life has been limited (a few warm but not-quite-deep friendships). I've seen a lot of these cognitive biases you're describing in ENFJs though.
    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    ...

    As for the chart data, if there's any overlap between INFJ and INFP core motivations as per mbti, that would explain the overlap... If there aren't any, then there must be something wrong in the wording of either of the tests that mislead enneagram 4s... One thing that comes to my mind is that IxFP's mirror image functionwise is ExFJ... Perhaps that's what causing the overlap?
    Also check http://www.typologycentral.com/forum....php?p=2283301

    There may be an overlap or crossover between ENFJ and INFP around enneagrams 3w4 and 4w3....

    Some INFJs of the enneagram type 4 may actually be ENFJs...The "categorizing of people according to their use to the self and the desire to be revered and praised" thing fits with ENFJ... I guess Hitler was an unhealthy ENFJ...

  9. #139
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    @OrangeAppled @PeaceBaby @Eilonwy @underwaterthing

    I think the INFJ type, like all IxxJs, require a very strong super ego that forces them to supress their egos, desires and impulses...

    If you read type 3 and 4 descriptions, you'll see that there's no evidence suggesting a strong super-ego and suppression of self desires and impulses...but rather a strong focus on self...

    It appears that there's quite some INFJs of the enneagram 4 variety online... However that doesn't make sense...



    ^This is clearly "enneagram 1"...the perfectionist...or the reformer...most likely with a 2 wing... i.e. 1w2...

    Something is "off"... And those of you who have 1 in their wings, do you feel the (supressing\inhibiting) effect of super-ego on your ego? If yes, how...?

  10. #140
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The following is a set of statistics on forum membership. There are three pieces of data:

    Before 2010 - % of forum members who joined prior to 1/1/2010 (earlier members)
    After 1/2012 - % of forum members that have posted since 1/1/2012 (active members)
    Population - % of Enneagram types in Rheti testing in 1998

    The point of this is to identify which predominant Enneagram types are on the forum and compare this to the Enneagram types in the overall population at large. The Rheti stats are the best ones I could find. If someone has anything better, let me know.



    What would you speculate on these things:
    - Why would we have so few Enneagram 9s, 6s, 1s, and 2s compared to the population at large?
    - Why would we have so many Enneagram 5s and 4s compared to the population at large?
    - It looks like the previous dominance of 4s and 5s may be decreasing and percentage of 6s is increasing. Thoughts as to why?
    - Any other thoughts?
    Perhaps some people of another type among the offline population is mistyping and misrepresenting themselves as 4s online... Mind that enneagram 2 population is underrepresented online... Fe-doms mistyping themselves as Fi-doms?

    @Eilonwy you identify with INFJ but your enneagram type is 4 but I suggested that you were a Fe-dom... You also sound apologetic towards INFPs, which happens to be your mirror image type if I am correct...i.e. your shadow type, which you may have reconciled with given your seniority...

    Could you please do this test and share your results...?

    http://www.sociotype.com/tests/

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