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  1. #111
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Haha, yeah, that's another possibility altogether. It's sometimes hard to distinguish someone getting annoyed by a playful poke and someone poking right back in the same mood. I blindly followed @yeghor's 'What did calb do' question, while I wasn't even convinced calb had done anything - just that IF you were annoyed, this would be my guess why. Playfully poking back in a Fe way slipped my mind as an option there.

    Poking back can be fun.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #112
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Hi there underwaterthing: Wanted to say I enjoyed your post and presentation of contrast.

    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions.
    From an Ne perspective, I am not so sure about this anymore. I used to believe there was more openness but experientially the S types have proven more adaptable to updating or changing their opinions.

    Let's look at some contrasts in this thread. (I don't want to pull you into discussion on this) but there is a high degree of subjectivity surrounding this purported openness to changing opinion. I think each INFJ who has shared in thread has taken the OP at face value. The statements of INFPs in thread, however, are not, and encounter fare more skepticism. According to yeghor, INFPs are in here to protect egos, and in anticipation of this common projection, the INFPs pre-disclaimed that projection. Yet is this taken at face value? No.

    There appears a varying degree of ego investment in some Ni-Je judgements vs others, some are latched onto and pursued with much more vigour.

    For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
    Yes, I liked how you expressed this.

    ...Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.
    And this.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #113
    Member March's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I think each INFJ who has shared in thread has taken the OP at face value.
    Offering a data point, I took the OP at face value. It was a face value story with some face value direct quotes, facts and descriptions of actions (I called her, she wrote a letter to me, the letter contained this sentence, she is older than me), some face value irrelevant background opinions (INFJ is very nice and pretty and much in demand), some face value first-hand feelings (INFJ felt put-upon), some face-value second-hand interpretations of feelings (INFP felt lonely) and some face-value irrelevant conclusions (INFP is childish).

    I did not trust all of these different things atface value, and not for a millisecond did I think OP pretended to paint a complete picture.

  4. #114
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Offering a data point, I took the OP at face value. It was a face value story with some face value direct quotes, facts and descriptions of actions (I called her, she wrote a letter to me, the letter contained this sentence, she is older than me), some face value irrelevant background opinions (INFJ is very nice and pretty and much in demand), some face value first-hand feelings (INFJ felt put-upon), some face-value second-hand interpretations of feelings (INFP felt lonely) and some face-value irrelevant conclusions (INFP is childish).

    I did not trust all of these different things atface value, and not for a millisecond did I think OP pretended to paint a complete picture.
    ok, perfect. I felt pretty much the same as you, aside from being on the outside seeing an "INFJ lens" overtop of that story. If you don't trust the story, and know the picture is incomplete, how do you plug the gaps? And what degree of confidence do you have in how the gaps have been filled?

    As you already know, I see your interpretation as probably the best that can be drawn from the information provided (mismatched expectations). But I am really uncomfortable bridging the gaps in this story and Ni seems more comfortable doing that. If someone like me can't or isn't going to tell you what I think because it's too premature, then we miss out on an "Fe vote" if you will as to what possibly may have gone wrong. How can we capture that? Or not have our very real need for more data dismissed as 'whininess'?

    Can you tell me what happens next for you? How can so many others take a story with so many gaps and move forward with commenting on it?

    Ultimately, my data gathering will contribute to a much more set judgement, and there's a lot of gravity in such a thing in my world. It is admittedly difficult for me to see how a whole bunch of Je makes for a way to a complete picture, especially since a lot of the world is not wired to provide that readily.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #115
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I went through a lot of tragedy early on in my adult life.

    I was in college when I decided that.

    I decided that emotions are like a horse. You can let them run all over your life, trampling everything in their path or you can put a bit in their mouth, harness their energy and plow your fields to yield the crop you want. There are times to let them run free, but I decide when. I control them. They don't control me. Mostly, barring a tragedy or something like that. Even then, I surprise myself by being calm throughout most ordeals and then I get the shakes....afterwards, when everything returns to normal.

    EDIT: why I picked smileys and nature....I actually picked the people who looked like they would be the most interesting to talk to on a long term basis and those who looked the least emotionally volatile. I picked nature because I'm a very outdoorsy person, like to hike, climb, swim, garden, etc.
    Well I'm in my 30s and still yet to master control of my F... I think it should be the same with other NFs...

  6. #116
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Just some thoughts - I still have a lot to learn about cognitive functions so a lot of this might be inaccurate. Part of the reason why I'm posting it is so I can hear feedback, so feel free to point something out if it strikes you as wrong.


    A lot of this relates to what @skylights said previously.

    A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.
    For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly. They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening. For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
    I guess my main theory is:
    Because IxFPs are so sensitive to being judged, and also because 1) their own inner experience with using (inferior) Je suggests that it's very final and judgmental and 2) the flexibility of Ni in the healthy INxJ isn't always externally obvious, the judgments of the INxJ can come across as offensive, closed-minded and arrogant to those IxFPs who don't understand the INxJ's strategy of forming a single, dynamic vision (which has nuances that are difficult to articulate) instead of juggling multiple possibilities and waiting to form judgments like a Perceiver (esp. NP). This sensitivity can come across as prickliness or "boo hoo, poor me" egocentric hypersensitivity to INxJs. Similarly, INxJs can miss the depth in the IxFP's microcosmic way of thinking, understanding people, and forming values; also Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

    Another general clash:
    - To some Ne-users, Ni+Je can appear too inflexible (even though it's not if the individual is healthy). I believe that to some Ni-users, Ne (especially without Ti) can seem like mentally bouncing around the room at 100 mph.
    - As previously touched on, INFPs tend to view the self as a microcosm through which others can be understood, and I think this approach can seem too limited to the INxJ and their more macroscopic approach.

    - These are generalizations and, assuming they have validity, there are still going to be exceptions in every case.
    - What I said about INFPs forming judgments slowly can be thrown out when someone crosses their deeply-held personal values. In that case, we can be VERY judgmental.
    I do the quick judgement think, like INFJs, but like them the judgement changes as I get new info. Infact my mind has been completely changed about different people as I've gotten to know them. At the same time I hate being miss judged. I'm fine if it's true or is a general judgement, but if it's to specific and no real data to actually reach that conclusion, I get pissed. I'm a hypocrite
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  7. #117
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    Well I'm in my 30s and still yet to master control of my F... I think it should be the same with other NFs...

    Every person develops at his or her own pace. Life experiences, culture, environment, family life, belief systems, etc. all play a part in what develops in us and when it develops. I think you're right, actually. Most NFs are in their 30s before that kicks in. I had just had a jump start. I had to develop it early in order to survive.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #118
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    ..Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.
    I have never considered INFPs shallow and wishy-washy.

    I do find them uncomfortable with finalization of ideas or projects, and for an NJ, that can be a little frustrating sometimes.

    I also find that *sometimes when I say things they take them in a way that I never meant them.

    Those are not put-downs, at least they're not put-downs from my view point. They're just my observations, kind of like saying, "The sun is shining. I think it's a nice day." Someone else who doesn't value sunny days may point out that I neglected to praise the value of rainy days or snowy days or tornadic days or various other kinds of days. I meant no disrespect toward other kinds of days. i just wasn't thinking of them at the moment.

    Sometimes, I feel like the INFPs I encounter are verbally lashing out at an infraction of an internal rule that I never knew existed in the first place. It's as if I'm playing a guessing game because in encountering multiple INFPs is that it's impossible for me to know who values what ideas, concepts, etc., because each INFP is a different person and each one holds his/her own personal set of values.

    I get along well with my real life INFP because I've been around her for a long time now and eat dinner or have coffee with her at least once a week. We talk a lot and I watch how she interacts and reacts to and with others. I pick up on what she values, but I think INFPs are like snowflakes. They're all made of the same substances but no two are arranged in the same pattern and each one falls where it will. I've had time to learn some of her rules, but even with her, it's often a guessing game, because some of those rules seemingly come out of nowhere and come across as "quirky and eccentric" to me. I know that they don't really come out of nowhere and if I could see through her eyes then I would know where they come from.

    INFPs and INFJs come from different cognitive worlds. We can communicate but we need universal translators [I think ENFPs, ENTPs and other assorted life forms are good mediators for us]. We are always going to be slightly offbeat in our communication.

    Personally, I have decided that I only have time in my life to be close to one INFP, because in order to do that, it takes a lot of time. That's not meant in a bad way. If I'm gonna have an INFP friend, I'm willing to put the time in but it can only be with one, because time and energy won't permit anymore.

    So when I started this thread I presented two random people, one of which I know well, one of which I don't. I could not present INFP's view point, because I'm not an INFP and INFP lives on the other side of the world and comes from another culture. I know the presentation was INFJ tainted, because, I'm INFJ. I make no pretense that I presented the INFP fairly. In fact, I've repeatedly said that I didn't have the whole story. I only wanted to know what functions might be responsible for the differences. I didn't mean to "discolor" INFP. I'm sure INFJ was just as much at fault. There are always things left unsaid when somebody recounts a story. We're different but I just wanted to know which differences could have caused the downfall of such a "friendship."

    You all lent a hand in helping me see and draw conclusions...yes, I said that...because that's what INFJs do...we draw conclusions. We don't do it to be mean or ugly or insensitive. We do it because...well, because we're just wired that way.

    *Not saying every time and not saying every INFP...just sometimes.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #119
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    Poking back can be fun.
    that's what she said.
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #120
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    that's what she said.
    Haha! Well, you never know.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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