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  1. #101
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Agreed. It made me want to barf. Yet another INFJ seeing themselves as perfect & bogged down with hanger-ons they are just too kind to ignore? Ugh.... These people's inability to see themselves is frightening.

    Possible functional clashes:
    - Fe presuming all kinds of stuff & projecting BS (unable to interpret things outside of Fe protocol), over rates self (especially in terms of supposed "giving")
    - Ni arrogance & extremely narrow viewpoint
    - Inferior Se braggy arrogance
    - Fi extreme privacy & inexpression which appears inactive on the outside, strong dislike of braggy arrogance
    - Ne boredom in hearing others yack on about dull details of their lives
    - Inferior Te raw expressions of irritations (although the description of it sounds too passive & manipulative; FiTe is direct & scathing).

    Suspicious:
    - IxxP wanting that much consistent & lengthy contact
    - IxFP making & expressing value judgments about someone's decisions in a guilt-trippy way (reeks of Fe)
    - IxxP complaining about aloofness (IxxPs are aloof)
    - IxxP worried about status with someone (reeks of Fe )

    Not convinced this person is INFP. Probably just an unhealthy IxFx being pegged as INFP because it's the catch-all category for such people.
    I agree with your suspicion, because the INFPs that I know, love them some boundaries. It's like trying to move an ice berg with them. EVERYTHING has to go over their value system first.

  2. #102
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    What if both sides were mistyped? Edit: Would that change how you approach to all this?
    Of course. The conjecture on functions would be different, although if you take it as a literal description of what's going on that is not cheeky, then you've missed the point.

    However, the OP is showing a pattern that pops up in those who type as INFJ. I noted that & so did PB because it happens enough to stand out as something INFJs do. It will always be side-stepped though, as INFJs will not admit wrongs or imperfections. Instead, deflection will occur (as in here, implication that INFPs accurately pointing out the OP's distorted perspective means INFPs are too sensitive....but who's the one refusing to address criticism? Hmm....).

    Whereas her description of the INFP doesn't fit negative patterns for INFPs. Her comments on Fi certainly don't reflect a grasp of nor desire for "truth".
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #103
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course. The conjecture on functions would be different, although if you take it as a literal description of what's going on that is not cheeky, then you've missed the point.

    However, the OP is showing a pattern that pops up in those who type as INFJ. I noted that & so did PB because it happens enough to stand out as something INFJs do. It will always be side-stepped though, as INFJs will not admit wrongs or imperfections. Instead, deflection will occur (as in here, implication that INFPs accurately pointing out the OP's distorted perspective means INFPs are too sensitive....but who's the one refusing to address criticism? Hmm....).

    Whereas her description of the INFP doesn't fit negative patterns for INFPs. Her comments on Fi certainly don't reflect a grasp of nor desire for "truth".
    I think it is unhealthy Ne that has a tendency to "distort" things to protect the ego... It reminds me of a chaff or a flare that a fighter craft employs to evade an incoming missile (which can hurt the ego if it succesfully hits)... So Ne is looking for alternate explanations (chaffs) about the things happening around the self and the self itself so that the self can remain protected from negative consequences...so that the self can feel good...

    It however also prevents the self from criticizing itself by conjuring alternate explanations i.e. "excuses" about things and the self... it's an avoidance mechanism...

    INFPs employing this tactic in this thread implies to me that there's something in the thread that they detect as a threat to their core self... something that may hurt them...

    Edit: Assuming that people aren't mistyped...
    Last edited by yeghor; 04-24-2014 at 03:42 AM. Reason: Edit

  4. #104
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    Haha, @calb, yes, I R speaking the Dutch.

    Sometimes.

    Don't tell anyone, though.

    Here, have a smokescreen: Trop drôle. Sehr wichtig. очень хорошо.
    I like it when it is white, like the chalk kind.

  5. #105
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I think it is unhealthy Ne that has a tendency to "distort" things to protect the ego... It reminds me of a chaff or a flare that a fighter craft employs to evade an incoming missile (which can hurt the ego if it succesfully hits)... So Ne is looking for alternate explanations (chaffs) about the things happening around the self and the self itself so that the self can remain protected from negative consequences...so that the self can feel good...

    It however also prevents the self from criticizing itself by conjuring alternate explanations i.e. "excuses" about things and the self... it's an avoidance mechanism...

    INFPs employing this tactic in this thread implies to me that there's something in the thread that they detect as a threat to their core self... something that may hurt them...
    Deflection..... Why not address the criticisms head-on? Why not consider negative INFJ patterns?
    This you describe is exactly what INFJs do (and are doing). INFPs give & have given far more consideration to the premise & have explained it's holes. But INFJs refuse to reason. It's either "oh thanks for your perspective" brush-offs or attacking credibility of the INFP instead of the argument.

    Instead, it must be about someone else's motivations, or whatever. But the OP is not a criticism of INFPs. So we're not addressing it as one. It was asked that functions be considered, implying there is a connection with type & these behaviors/mentalities. What's being suggested is that the situation is not about type, but the interpretation of it may be about type, namely, the OP's type. And we only have one side of it, which leaves only a "general INFP model" to compare it to, and it doesn't jive with that. So that leaves 3 possibilites:
    - OP is correct (too much inconsistency & apparent emotional bias)
    - INFP in situation is experiencing & seeing it very differently (one way to make it consistent with general INFP model)
    - OP is wrong about person being INFP (removes some inconsistency, opens up potential to better grasp situation)

    Refusing to consider all of this seems protection of the INFJ "core self". What hurts YOU about the criticisms towards the OP & INFJs? The truth being avoided is INFJs seeing themselves.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  6. #106
    Senior Member yeghor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Deflection..... Why not address the criticisms head-on? Why not consider negative INFJ patterns?
    This you describe is exactly what INFJs do (and are doing). INFPs give & have given far more consideration to the premise & have explained it's holes. But INFJs refuse to reason. It's either "oh thanks for your perspective" brush-offs or attacking credibility of the INFP instead of the argument.

    Instead, it must be about someone else's motivations, or whatever. But the OP is not a criticism of INFPs. So we're not addressing it as one. It was asked that functions be considered, implying there is a connection with type & these behaviors/mentalities. What's being suggested is that the situation is not about type, but the interpretation of it may be about type, namely, the OP's type. And we only have one side of it, which leaves only a "general INFP model" to compare it to, and it doesn't jive with that. So that leaves 3 possibilites:
    - OP is correct (too much inconsistency & apparent emotional bias)
    - INFP in situation is experiencing & seeing it very differently (one way to make it consistent with general INFP model)
    - OP is wrong about person being INFP (removes some inconsistency, opens up potential to better grasp situation)

    Refusing to consider all of this seems protection of the INFJ "core self". What hurts YOU about the criticisms towards the OP & INFJs? The truth being avoided is INFJs seeing themselves.
    I am mirroring you...

  7. #107
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    I am mirroring you...
    And I'm mocking INFJs.....how's that reflection look?
    It's not me.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #108
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calb View Post
    I can't help to think that socionics got it right with IEE-ENFp and IEI-INFp. e.g. the shadow functions of INFJ (MBTI) is the ENFP (MBTI). Like you would switch between them. That is just my own theory but I keep thinking that the INFJ can go into ENFP mode and also go mothering me and be all clingy if they want to, but then return to their natural state of being an INFJ. Fe tough love and all.

    About the banter, was that your 8-wing sticking it's head out? Or do you think it is just a thing that happens between INFJ (dare I say ENFP-mode) bantering with the INTJ (assuming that the INTJ can go ENTP mode too for a while)?

    What do you y'all think now?

    @March, what's with the Dutch, are you speaking the Dutch?

    I think it was the 8 wing. That thing can sure enough get a gal into trouble sometimes, but it keeps life...interesting.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  9. #109
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeghor View Post
    How old were you when you decided that? Fe users also have fluctuating emotions... they can connect with their shadow Fi from time to time... Fe is just a "static, mechanical front"... You don't have any emotional fluctuations?

    Why did you pick smiley people and nature pics?
    I went through a lot of tragedy early on in my adult life.

    I was in college when I decided that.

    I decided that emotions are like a horse. You can let them run all over your life, trampling everything in their path or you can put a bit in their mouth, harness their energy and plow your fields to yield the crop you want. There are times to let them run free, but I decide when. I control them. They don't control me. Mostly, barring a tragedy or something like that. Even then, I surprise myself by being calm throughout most ordeals and then I get the shakes....afterwards, when everything returns to normal.

    EDIT: why I picked smileys and nature....I actually picked the people who looked like they would be the most interesting to talk to on a long term basis and those who looked the least emotionally volatile. I picked nature because I'm a very outdoorsy person, like to hike, climb, swim, garden, etc.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  10. #110
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by underwaterthing View Post
    Just some thoughts - I still have a lot to learn about cognitive functions so a lot of this might be inaccurate. Part of the reason why I'm posting it is so I can hear feedback, so feel free to point something out if it strikes you as wrong.


    A lot of this relates to what @skylights said previously.

    A possible source of conflict between INxJs and IxFPs (especially INFPs): In their interactions with others, Ni+Je wants to fill in the blanks as much as possible, while Fi is very sensitive to being prejudged and takes it very personally. From what I've both read and seen in real life, INxJs naturally make these big intuitive leaps and tend to form pictures of something even from a small amount of input. As long as the INxJ is healthy, these pictures of reality are dynamic (and are sometimes nearly accurate from the beginning anyway); they change as more input comes in, so their prejudgments aren't really a big deal in the long run. Basically, they judge quickly but are aware of the lack of 100% accuracy in those judgments and are open to changing their opinions. Unhealthy INxJs are a different story, but I won't get into that here.
    For IxFPs, however, judgments are usually a big deal and, except in cases in which someone crosses their personal values, are formed more slowly. They're very sensitive themselves to feeling like their voices are being lost in translation; being incorrectly judged feels like being erased/buried under other people's incorrect assumptions, and feels painfully depreciating, especially when they value the person judging them. Because of this personal sensitivity combined with their empathy, IxFPs are also extremely sensitive about seeing others being incorrectly/unfairly judged and will stand up for them if they believe it's happening. For an INFP who has enough NeTe to balance out FiSi, when getting to know someone they will juggle various possibilities about what that person could be like instead of forming a single but also dynamic vision like a healthy INxJ. As the INFP learns more, Te narrows down the possibilities until they finally make a definite judgment about the person. Because Te is the INFP's inferior function, reforming those Te judgments is usually a pain in the ass so they tend to be pretty static, or at least not often changed. (Unless the INFP has very good use of Te.) (There are also more layers to this that I'm not going into detail about; usually there are little Ne doubts dancing around and trying to pick the Te steel locks.)
    I guess my main theory is:
    Because IxFPs are so sensitive to being judged, and also because 1) their own inner experience with using (inferior) Je suggests that it's very final and judgmental and 2) the flexibility of Ni in the healthy INxJ isn't always externally obvious, the judgments of the INxJ can come across as offensive, closed-minded and arrogant to those IxFPs who don't understand the INxJ's strategy of forming a single, dynamic vision (which has nuances that are difficult to articulate) instead of juggling multiple possibilities and waiting to form judgments like a Perceiver (esp. NP). This sensitivity can come across as prickliness or "boo hoo, poor me" egocentric hypersensitivity to INxJs. Similarly, INxJs can miss the depth in the IxFP's microcosmic way of thinking, understanding people, and forming values; also Ne in NFPs can make them appear shallow and wishy-washy to INxJs who don't understand the Fi core underneath Ne means we can juggle possibilities without actually changing our minds all the time.

    Another general clash:
    - To some Ne-users, Ni+Je can appear too inflexible (even though it's not if the individual is healthy). I believe that to some Ni-users, Ne (especially without Ti) can seem like mentally bouncing around the room at 100 mph.
    - As previously touched on, INFPs tend to view the self as a microcosm through which others can be understood, and I think this approach can seem too limited to the INxJ and their more macroscopic approach.

    - These are generalizations and, assuming they have validity, there are still going to be exceptions in every case.
    - What I said about INFPs forming judgments slowly can be thrown out when someone crosses their deeply-held personal values. In that case, we can be VERY judgmental.

    Thank you. This is a very insightful post.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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